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Post by arch2ngel on Jan 2, 2010 3:43:48 GMT -5
No, I was meaning from an RP point of view, they had to create a reason for the character to want to be in both forms. Give them different personalities that are vying for control (ala Dr. Jeckle and Mr. Hyde) - that doesn't require a challenge. It can be simply an RP situation. He could simply have an identity he wants to cultivate (a chance to have a life apart from his hero identity - and for whatever reason, he needs to be in his non-powered form to do it, which could be as simple as Captain Marvel vs. Billy Batson - no drawback to looking like Captain Marvel, but there is if he wants to live a life as Billy Batson!) This doesn't even bring Challenges into it. The Thing who could change back and forth would be able to change into a powerful, yet monsterous form, but would LOVE the chance to change back when the fight is over...
Making someone like Emma Frost is easy - she has advantages in both forms, but if you wanted a weaker form, you just have to explain why there IS a weaker form, instead of just staying in the powerful form for the rest of his life... My Transform Self (now) merely requires that you think your character out to include that reason. If there is no reason, it's just fluff that when he's de-powered, he looks different. That's not worth Transform Self.
(Note: this IS a change from how I originally wrote it up, but I LIKE the change, and is a result of what you'd said before - this is what I was trying to say as a reply to you before. Does that make more sense now?)
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Post by Dionon on Jan 4, 2010 23:59:43 GMT -5
I honestly stopped reading on page 1 (In the Too Much Math post) and I'll say this... Having created a character using these rules... There really isn't too much math, It's a simple process... And it's really user friendly if you just pull out the calculator and do the 1 equation required.
It took me maybe 20 minutes to fully create the character I created with this system from Idea to Finished Product PM to arch2ngel... It's not hard... it just looks that way. Try it out for yourself if you don't believe me.
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Post by skull on Feb 6, 2010 11:19:28 GMT -5
I thnk in any situation where its purely a rp choice, like when and how you transform and whether or not they have two different personalities is purely up to the player and GM. It does not need to be controlled mechanically, or be put out there so that players can abuse it to gain additional stones.
So I'm not sure If this will help simplify this or not but:
The way that Transform Self could be handled is that when you by the transform self modifier, paying 1-5 white stones, you buy a average human template. something like IQ:2 STR:2 AG:1, Dur:1. The you buy your abilities, actions, and modifier for the powered character. Any none superpower action like Inventing or driving, ect, can bleed over to the average Joe side of the character at a +1 level cost. Te only thing that could not bleed over would be anything that is considered a "Superpower" or "Power" in general.
Just a thought. I feel like very time someone comes up with a new idea of how to handle Transform Self it seems that make it overly detailed and possibly complected, as much so as the old one-if not just easier to read.
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Post by arch2ngel on Feb 6, 2010 15:31:35 GMT -5
The problem with that is that it doesn't account for characters like Emma Frost, who have super powers in both forms (telepathy in one, and diamond skin in the other). Banner also has genius level intellect, and this wouldn't let him have that. Also, what about characters with more than two forms? The things characters in comics have done with Transform Self (and thus, what players will want for their characters) are pretty wide and varied, which is why no simple solution has been found (yet)... (I feel that mine is the closest, but a lot of people shied away from it, feeling it was too complicated.)
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Post by skull on Feb 6, 2010 16:26:54 GMT -5
I see what your saying.
So what if when you buy the Transform self package: it gives you a number of stones to work with for both forms: something like 10-15 stones for one and 30 for the other. Keeping the options to use non-power action in both forms with a +1 to the cost. Then just create an option where you can buy additional 2nd forms, each additional one cost 1 white stone or something. And another option that affects how the transform process works that works like a challenge and gains additional stones for the first form.
In the end, all I am saying is that the anwser to the problem is a simple one, we just are not seeing it.
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Post by arch2ngel on Feb 6, 2010 16:50:52 GMT -5
How much does it cost for Transform Self? Were you still putting it at 5w? Because if it gives 10-15 in one form (which would NOT be enough for either of Emma Frost's forms, which would require a more equal split of the stones), and 30 in the other, then you're looking at the problem that many of the other Transform Self options had: namely, that you're giving WAY too many stones and the more powerful form is going to be WAY more powerful than what the guy who doesn't have Transform Self could be, which is really bad for game balance...especially if the other form is useful as well. (Conversely, if it costs too much, why bother with it?)
You have to strike a very delicate balance, and while we want it to be simple for the player creating the character, I think coming up with the solution is EXTREMELY complicated, if not impossible - especially the more you try to make it simple for the player...
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Post by skull on Feb 6, 2010 17:10:56 GMT -5
Actually, I think In Emma frost case its should be handled more as a disadvantage: When this power is used lose ability to use other Power based action.
But yes, you are right. I was just throwing out numbers for it. I also don't see any reason to make it cost anything to have a transform self modifier.
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Post by bikermatt on Feb 17, 2010 14:11:23 GMT -5
I'd decided to remake the Hulk, and it came out rather interresting. with a little (VERY little) drop in experience he came out to 40 stones, not including the "Rage" effect that I can't find rules for.
Bruce Banner / Hulk
Abilities: Int 7 / 1 Str 1 / 10 Agi 1 / 1 Spd 1 / 4 Dur 1 / 7 Rec 2 / 7 Pool 3 / 7
Actions: 1. Combat, Close 1 / 3 2. Combat, Ranged 1 (+3 CL Heave Heavy Objects) 3. Healing, Medical 6 / 0 4. Inventing 1 / 0 5. Social Skills 3 / 1 6. Technology 5 / 0
Modifiers: Toughness 8 (no x2, MC 2) Accelerated Healing
Challenges: Enemies (-3w, both) Appearance (-3w)
Total (Assuming -10w for Transform Self): 39w, 1r
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Post by arch2ngel on Feb 17, 2010 17:20:33 GMT -5
The lowest Transform Self (under my method) could ever get is 0. So if we're going with the Hulk having an Involuntary Change that takes a Full Page to transform, it would cost him 0 points, but he wouldn't gain any, either... So you've got a 49w, 1r for the Hulk (not including his Rage ability - which I, for one, would REALLY like written up, so I can see how it works and what stones it's worth!)
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Post by bikermatt on Feb 18, 2010 13:05:56 GMT -5
Wait, so the method simply gives up to 10 stones free to choose the method of transformation? That doesn't seem right. Colossus gets back 10 stones and has complete control, while the Hulk goes wild and COMPLETELY out of Banner's control. The judgement needs to be a bit better fine-tuned. On anoter note, after I wrote the post I found murpg.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=revisions&action=display&thread=3196 listing a viable method for Rage, though I disliked the "legal" combo of extra strength with long charge time (2 Str every 4 panels, -1CL, 1 Str every 2 panels, +0CL)
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Post by arch2ngel on Feb 18, 2010 20:51:46 GMT -5
I'm sorry - I didn't explain that well. A character (like Colossus) who can voluntarily change forms and does so as a free action would have to SPEND 10w for the modifier. A character (like the Hulk) who has no control over when he changes into either form (ie. it's involuntary - he can try to keep the situation from occuring that would make him change, but when it happens, he changes - and it's the only way he can change), and takes a full panel to change, the Modifier doesn't cost any stones - you've, in essence, already paid for it. And there are ways to reduce the cost, so it can fall anywhere in between those two extremes (can voluntarily change, but has conditions that make him change, or requires only one action to change and/or requires stones to change/maintain an alternate form.) So you have to PAY for the Transform Self modifier (between 0 and 10w) depending on how much control the character has over the change and how quick the change is.
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Post by bikermatt on Feb 18, 2010 22:29:19 GMT -5
Um... perhaps I'm the one who was being unclear in exactly what I was objecting to. When you built Colossus, you spent 10 stones to make it essentially instant and voluntary... then decided that the circumstances surrounding the transformaton option constituted a 10 stone challenge. The Hulk, on the other hand, lacked the speed and control, and had an unlisted challenge (to cover the possible Rage action/modifier) for multiple personalities, yet the challenge for HIS transformation is zero, which is ALSO the same as what he paid for in his option (just like Colossus). That's what I meant by "up to 10 free stones to spend on Transform Self options." If this isn't what you intended, then I'd appreciate more clarity in the listing of the challenge. Then maybe I migtbe betterequipped to figure out what's the best way to look at it (and maybe convince my friends to try MU2!)
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Post by arch2ngel on Feb 18, 2010 22:51:43 GMT -5
Um...I only gave Colossus two Challenges: Mutant (which is 3 stones, available before the 1.5 multiplier), and Extreme Vulnerability to Magnetics (which is 5 stones, but only affects his metal form, so he got it after the 1.5 multiplier and could only spend it on his metal form - so the equivalent of 3w,1r.) That's nowhere near 10w in Challenges... As for Hulk, where does his advantage come from? Well, your Hulk spent a total of 1w,1r (3w,1r on abilities, 1w on actions, -3w on challenges) for Step 3 (btw, I cleaned it up at the bottom of murpg2project.yolasite.com/modifiers.php if that helps you follow along with the Steps - but I'm referring to when you purchase the lowest common denominator for abilities, actions, and modifiers.) So for a 40w character, he would've been left with 38w,1r before the multiplier in Step 4, giving him 57w,1r to split between either form (and 3w that could only be spent on the Hulk form, for the challenge.) That's a "bonus" of 19 stones above what a character without Transform Self would have (granted, it can only be spent on one form or the other - but that's still not bad for a modifier that didn't cost him a stone!)
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Post by Ziegander on Feb 18, 2010 23:29:27 GMT -5
I've been meaning to post in here. I f**king LOVE the way you've handled Transform Self in these rules. I can't think of a character that I'd want to be able to make that these rules doesn't handle. Seriously, nicely done. I'm going to write up a 40 stone character in a little bit, using 1.0 rules, and see what it looks like.
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Post by arch2ngel on Feb 19, 2010 5:02:13 GMT -5
Thanks! I appreciate the feedback, whether positive or negative. Let me know how it goes with making the character(s).
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