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Post by WildKnight on Nov 24, 2010 14:50:58 GMT -5
Spilled milk doesn't bother me. Pissing all over brilliance does. A writers contribution to the world is the ideas he leaves behind, just like a painter's contribution to the world is his paintings.
I seriously doubt anybody would just shrug and go "oh well" if somebody painted over the Mona Lisa canvas, but I'm supposed to be totally okay with taking Lovecraft's ideas and weaving them into an ongoing joke where the supernatural exists only as a stage upon which the superheroic can stride proudly, cracking bad puns as they go???
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Post by takewithfood on Nov 24, 2010 14:57:04 GMT -5
Have you actually seen any of the Buffy or Angel episodes that had to do with the Old Ones? I'm curious as to why you didn't notice the similarity at the time, considering that the mere mention of it now appears to be giving you an aneurysm.
And I forgot to mention that there's a mutant character in Angel.
~TWF
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Post by WildKnight on Nov 24, 2010 15:01:20 GMT -5
Didn't watch Buffy beyond a couple of episodes each season (as I've said repeatedly), and I don't remember any Old Ones coming up in Angel. Or a mutant, for that matter (and I'm not sure what the relevance of the mutant character is to this discussion)
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Post by WildKnight on Nov 24, 2010 15:08:27 GMT -5
Bah, I read the wikipedia on Buffy "Old Ones"... they have nothing whatsoever to do with Lovecraft. They're pure-blooded demons, including the goofy thing that Fred eventually becomes.
Name aside, this has NO similarity to Lovecrafts Old Ones (who are definitively "aliens" and not supernatural at all, as with all of Lovecrafts "monsters"). You people gave me a coronary over nothing.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2010 15:26:21 GMT -5
Depends in the individual old one. In one episode of ange it descibes Illryias true form as being massive. Most of lovecrafts old ones were pretty big too, and had cults, Like the ones in the whedonverse. Most or all of the old ones are bound in "the deeper well" as explained in Angel, and in lovecraft's works they are bount jn the earth, under the sea, and so on.
Some demons in Buffy like the Queller came from space, and it in that episode that not every demon came from earth. They didn't go right out and say it, but it could easily be written that some of Joss' old ones may have been from space also.
He admits to "borrowing" ideas from several different works and tweaking them. After reading Lovecraft and watching Buffy, and Angel there's no denying that at at least some of Joss' ideas came from his works. It's not a blantant rip off as WK pointed out, but it's a probably more like a pop culture reference to Lovecraft.
Either way, it's nothing to really get upset about. It's not like I'm losing sleep over Joss making a reference back to a great book series, and if I hadn't have been googling Old Ones looking for information about them from watching Buffy and Angel I may not have read into Lovecraft's works, and became interested in them. Referencing something cool isn't a bad thing. It gives your fans a chance to learn about something else cool some times as well.
If I got interested in Lovecraft from being a Joss fan then I couldn't have been the only ones. So, refencing another great writers work wasn't really a bad thing. It just gave people the chance to learn more about Lovecraft.
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Post by WildKnight on Nov 24, 2010 15:33:27 GMT -5
I think you're misunderstanding Lovecraft. The Old One's aren't typically bound beneath the Earth or Sea. They're just asleep. While its a frequent hack of Call of Cthulhu RPG adventures that a certain "unantural" thing is bound and some cult is unbinding it and this needs to be stopped... Lovecraft himself was pretty clear on the fact that human abilities were futile against the true Old Ones (remember that not every evil in Lovecraft is an Old One... some are much newer and less powerful), and the idea that they could be "bound" by any mortal ritual or power is laughable.
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Post by takewithfood on Nov 24, 2010 15:41:54 GMT -5
He admits to "borrowing" ideas from several different works and tweaking them. After reading Lovecraft and watching Buffy, and Angel there's no denying that at at least some of Joss' ideas came from his works. It's not a blantant rip off as WK pointed out, but it's a probably more like a pop culture reference to Lovecraft. Like I said: there are also vampires, werewolves, witches, mummies, zombies, ghosts, demons, robots, deities, and even a mutant. It's safe to say that he drew on a lot of sources for the two shows. ~TWF
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2010 15:52:58 GMT -5
The cults in the whedonverse also Try to raise the old ones, and suceeded with Illryia. Bound or sleeping under the earth, are both simular things, but as you pointed out some of Lovecrafts Monsters were bound too.
The major difference that I can think of is that the whedonverse had people who could fight back. Slayers, demons that weren't evil, warewolves, vampires, and so on. Lovecraft seems more obout openers and closers. There are some differnces yes, but Joss' world had more than just humans fighting back. Mere humans may have not stood a chance, but when you throw in an army of monsters into the mix then binding becomes possible.
I'm just saying it's not exactly the same, but a pretty cool reference to Lovecrafts work.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2010 15:54:48 GMT -5
He admits to "borrowing" ideas from several different works and tweaking them. After reading Lovecraft and watching Buffy, and Angel there's no denying that at at least some of Joss' ideas came from his works. It's not a blantant rip off as WK pointed out, but it's a probably more like a pop culture reference to Lovecraft. Like I said: there are also vampires, werewolves, witches, mummies, zombies, ghosts, demons, robots, deities, and even a mutant. It's safe to say that he drew on a lot of sources for the two shows. ~TWF I know, I would have quoted you, but I'm mobile at the moment, lol.
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