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Post by Janus on Mar 24, 2018 7:34:54 GMT -5
Hey gang
Does anyone out there have any experience with running games involving using summoning?
I was looking at the section in the main rules and I'm really not happy with it as it doesn't seem to me to be very well thought out. Does anyone have any custom rules they use for this?
I'm slowly working my way through building my own set of rules but I'd really appreciate other people's input.
Cheers
J
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Post by Gris on Mar 24, 2018 7:49:58 GMT -5
Never used it nor seen it used as far as I can remember as it is indeed a mess.
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Post by Dhark on Mar 24, 2018 12:25:11 GMT -5
I’ve summoned a few things... it’s as broken as it looks, and twice as abuseable
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Post by Janus on Mar 24, 2018 15:02:50 GMT -5
I've created some fairly simple rules I think might solve the brokenness of summoning. I'm going to post them up here and I'd love some feedback
All thoughts, additions, comments, etc gratefully received
Summoning Cost Level = Action Number
Summoning is the Action of bringing into the plane of existence Demons and extra dimensional beings. A summoned being starts as being under the control of the summoner. That control must be maintained for all subsequent panels or the control will be broken and the being will be free to act as they wish.
Controlling a Demon becomes more difficult the further away from you it gets.
Whilst you control a Demon or other being you can command it's actions. The Demon generates its own energy, which it can use on your behalf. Whilst it is possible to compel obedience, there is own more to be gained by tact and diplomacy. You are summoning beings of independent intelligence and will, so don't be surprised it you lose control that it ignores your instructions or attacks you.
You must have Mastery of Magic, and your summoning action number can never be more than twice your Mastery of Magic action number.
You may want to buy an intelligence bonus at the normal cost of +5 levels to the cost.
How to summon.
To summon a being you must put red stones into your summoning action box.
These stones will determine how many White character creation stones you have to create the being with. This is done using the Ability/Action/Modifier costs chart (so 3 red stones equates to 1 white stone, 4 red stones is 2 white etc).
Summoned beings are created in the normal way through character creation.
More powerful creations can be summoned over multiple panels. The summoner can only spend up to his action number in stones per panel, however their relative power will determines the effort it takes to control them. Anything up to your action number costs 1 stone per panel to control. Double your action level costs 2 stones per panel to control, triple your ability level costs three stones per panel to control etc.
Controlling, Summoning or banishing a demon has a range of 1. The further a summoned being gets from you the harder it's becomes to maintain control over. To control summoned creatures over distances you must add one extra red stone per panel per range section on the d&r chart. Thus maintaining control over a summoned creature that is 1 mile away would cost 4 extra stones of effort per panel.
If the summoner fails to spend the required number of stones per panel to control the creature the control over the creature ends.
Keep in mind that summoned creatures may not appreciate being summoned away from their homes (family etc) so if the summoner loses control the creature may decided to try and kill the summoner.
Binding/banishing creatures
If you lose control of a creature and wish to regain control or banish creatures you must spend enough stones to effectively recreate the creature from scratch.
Working together
Mages are able to pool their efforts to summon and control larger more powerful creatures more easily.
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Post by lilithsboy on Mar 29, 2018 16:51:22 GMT -5
I have used it and it is only abuse-able if the DM allows it to be Summoning is one of those actions where if a DM is afraid to use the negatives of the power then they quickly loose control of the game. I have fun when players summon I treat them kinda how I treat Hex spheres a creature summoned may misunderstand request or take things too literally, very powerful creatures have unique binding factors from the bizarre to the dangerous, and trying to invoke too much power or too often will result in a no or even punishments (particularly when invoked power is never thanked properly) though reasonable invoking with proper respect is often rewarded.
Your action there makes the power unwieldy and it entirely removes invoking which is actually what is used in the comics more often than pure summoning. Please remember that summoning does rely on MOM which is mostly useless so it is effectively priced higher than it's entry would indicate.
Problems with this work around.
1. Distance how far off is another plane of existence if a character summons a being to grab something from another plane for them how difficult is it to control it? Too low and you get So another plane is just a few miles no matter where they are on it but I cannot control them here? Too high and it is impossible to maintain control of even the simplest creature.
2. Not enough bang for the buck. MoM is already slow and underpowered for what it does 1 pannel of prep and a 6 stone max. Now Dr.Strange is supposed to prep for 3 turns just to summon an 18 stone creature? It just is not worth it Summoning like this is overshadowed by what other powers do.
3. Regaining control so Dr.Strange for whatever reason wants to send that demon home that is 3 turns again and the demon very well may be attacking him the whole time he tries to spend 18 stones to send this weakling home? granted at 18 stones it wont be doing much but still....
4. Time it may not be an issue for Play by Post but trying to make these creatures on the fly using variable stones is not conducive to fun on a tabletop best to have the player research demons they can summon in game and keep a list of premades that the character knows how to summon.
But yeah I don't do much to alter Summoning myself I just use what is already there here is what I do though.
1. You cannot summon a demon till you research it. flavored as knowing it's true name or knowing how to lure it from said plane the fact is every summoned creature is premade so I don't have to try and do it on the fly I also know what my players have... They can of course suggest new creatures to me but I check what they are doing out and balance them it takes a lot of effort on my part but at the same time it ends up being rewarding.
2. You cannot invoke something you do not have a relationship with. This relationship does not have to be a positive one and the being can still say no but until you have an actual line of communication with a being (be it worship or summoning or even fighting) you do not know enough about it to invoke it.
3. Even gods have limits both in power and how much they are willing to take. You want to invoke how much power from a deity? I am sorry they cannot generate that sort of effect themselves they certainly are not going to try and to it for you... expect a gift in the mail for your hubris. Of course these are only my opinions though I do hope I helped some.
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Post by Janus on Mar 29, 2018 18:56:09 GMT -5
I think actually I may not have gotten across my intent
Dr Strange has a total summoning (not including items) of 13 (7 + int of 6). Let's say however he just uses 12 as that is his max stones for 1 panel. Level 12 is effectively 25 stones, so he can summon a 25 stone creature in 1 panel and getting rid of it is automatic whilst he maintains control. If he loses control yes he has to spend all 12 stones again whilst fighting it out with the creature.
Let's say he wants to summon a 50 stone creature. Yes it'll take him 3 panels just based on his stone regen rate.
The power of the creature you can summon isn't the limiting factor. The limit is how many stones it takes for you to maintain control.
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Post by lilithsboy on Mar 29, 2018 19:37:51 GMT -5
Okay I understand where my mistake was I was thinking each stone was a white not using the chart properly my mistake. How does invoking work with this as that seems to be the main use of the power we see in the comics?
And how does that distance thing work for alternate planes?
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Post by Janus on Mar 30, 2018 3:22:10 GMT -5
Honestly I've not thought about invoking. My main thought was to maintain game balance by having the number of stones you spend on the skill available for use to create your summoned creature. Very open to suggestions.
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Post by kito on Apr 2, 2018 20:56:44 GMT -5
Might start with u can only invoke with a being you have a pact with.
from there you could flavor it to mach different mage types/be different per every being or keep it the same.
E.G The cultist/priest spent 2 hour praying to his god (invoking) who then grants him the use of Blank Magical action for the next 2 hours (when the 2 hours are up he cannot use magical action again until he prays)
The warlock invokes to his Deamon Lord Getting +2 on his MOM and +4 to all his magical action (along with accumulate energy into his mom and int bonus into all magical action for the next month normaly the deamon lord is not so giving but his loyal walock has been gathering all the requied magical items to summon his master into the world with only 1 item left the DL gave him an extra kick to boost his chances of success tho should he fail it could cost him his life)
the deamon is to powerful for the mighty wizard, know his defeat is near the wizard invokes to the enamy of the daemon for aid, for one last big magical blast to end it all. sending 5 stoned (max summon of 7) the deamon agrees and grants him double his stone sent out back + his AN for a total of 17 stone magical blast.
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Post by lilithsboy on Apr 2, 2018 23:47:47 GMT -5
kito... Do you even know how invoking works in MURPG... only the last thing you said was remotely accurate and even that was waaaaay too powerful. Now that I have had a few days to look at it and work this with a few scenerios I have found the folowing problems. 1 at low levels summoning simply is not worth it because a novice summoner has to pay more to maintain control of a being than someone else does. I can think of no other power that gets harder to control simply by vein of having a lower AN it also punishes for buying the int bonus. (Strange may have an total of 13 but his actual An is 7 which means that 50 stone creature is taking more to control than what some people argue he regenerates per turn depending on how you view accumulate from MOM as I see we differ there too as I would argue it only takes Strange 2 rounds to summon a 50 pointer based off his regen.) I still think that planning will speed up table top as this will be clunky without it but this is better than the actual RAW for summoning. (like I said I force my players to know the names i.e. construct the creatures before hand) But this does give rules to control and binding factors where as it used to just be make some shit up.... though sometimes it is fun to make the shit up. Invoking works the way it is written basically giving the character 2x stones in an effect with a chance to fail. The issue is people are either too permissive or too restrictive with it which can cause bad feelings. I would suggest implementing a system similar to genetic eng to see if it passes or fails.
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Post by kito on Apr 6, 2018 22:50:57 GMT -5
I do this was more doing it in a different/interesting way. with the last example be a op version of the book.
made every example op/game breaking was more to show thing they could do with it, then what it does do in the book.
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Post by lilithsboy on Apr 7, 2018 2:25:54 GMT -5
Okay so Jewel can fly which means she can change the orbit of the earth by dragging it closer or further from the sun which means she can cause earth to be incapable of sustaining life.... Flight 1 is now a world ending OP power.... Or we can go by what the books and common sense give us.
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