Possible New Attribute: Sanity

[Manah]

So, I was thinking.

I used to believe that a character's sanity, or if you prefer Mental Health, was represented by the presence, or lack thereof, of Psychological or Mental problems challenges. And while I still think that it's certainly part of it, I also believe that 'general' mental health, while connected to said presence or absence of challenges, is also separate and somewhat independent.

For example, one may have a Psychological challenge (-3; severe cruelty), but otherwise be a very balanced and reasonable individual. Maybe they rationalize their cruelty in some way, or maybe they know it's wrong and might be working to correct it, but are still not letting it affect their own mental state aside from said cruelty. In such a case, that person would have a healthy mind, but a nonetheless serious problem to deal with.

The reverse is also true IMO. A person could have no psychological or mental problem challenge whatsoever, and be on the edge of breaking down due to overworking themselves, keeping themselves awake for extended periods of time, or whatever. In such a case, the person has no specific mental problem or identifiable psychological trouble, and yet has a poor mental health at the time.

Also, some things make no sense to me in the base rules. For example, Telepathy's Mental Bolt damages a character's Health white stones. Why? The body is unharmed, right? It's the mind that gets hit. And then you have the 'Repair minds' option to heal stones inflicted by mental attacks, so... what, stones inflicted by Mental attacks don't heal normally? How does that work? Does one make notes of how each white stone was lost?

Sooooo...

...my idea is to add a new attribute. Namely, Sanity, which would be a 'Health' stat for mental harm. It would have different rules from regular Health, would not get damaged in the same manner, and would not heal in the same way, because the mind is harder to damage, and to heal, than the body is.

Right now, I'm thinking Intelligence AN = Sanity, just like how Durability AN = Health. I'm thinking that extreme exposure to fear, stress and/or mental attacks like Mental Bolt, or a freaky situation like facing off against, say, a demon from hell for the first time, would be things that might damage one's Sanity. I'm thinking that healing naturally from Mental damage on one's own would likely take a LONG time, like maybe a month per stone of damage, and require some serious introspection and reflection on the character's part, although it could be sped up a bit if the person relaxes and takes it easy for the duration. I'm thinking that Repair Minds would specifically heal those stones not unlike Magical Healing, but would likely require some more work from the telepath, such as actually roleplaying the character entering the target's psyche to confront their fears/troubles head-on, which could make for pretty cool RP. As for the Psychiatry action, it could be used to speed up the natural healing of the victim from a little bit to considerably faster, depending on the AN of the user. Also, if a person's falls to dangerous levels - say, losing all the White stones and falling in the last 2 red stones range - could actually cause some psychological challenges related to what caused it, like Arachnophobia if the mental problem was caused by the terror of being trapped in the web of a giant spider monster or something.

Some people will likely say that this is good for a darker system such as Call of Chtulhu or something, but I would argue that even in real life, mental health is a frequent and serious concern for even the most normal people around. Depression, phobias and so on are very common, just to name a few, but there's a lot more to deal with out there. As for superhero settings, we've seen more than enough messed-up characters to warrant this.

Thoughts, suggestions, advice, comments?

[kito]

Like most of it (tho I do agree it matches more with a Call of Chtullhu then marvel, and would argue altho mental health is important super heroes are more above the "normal" problems. I'm sure if i was taken to space experimented on and left for dead only to get powers, or survived my body getting ripped apart buy a big bomb only to survive and literally become a monster I cant control I might be WAY worse for living threw it all BUT that said.) I'm not sure ether if you need a "real" point system or leave it up to player RP but I would say that you could go 2x int (3x int if int based energy) over 3 times dur. i would say you might want to add challenges if they loose so much mental health at any time and that is what they heal over actual mental stones (as we are able to ignore most minor trauma at first until you cant repress no more.

As far as mental bolts i would argue as long as you think you have taken dmg your brain would make the pain real, or even its like taking a tazzing to the head making it white stones of dmg.

idk if any of this is what you had in mind but your thoughts?

[Manah]

Honestly, I thought some more about it and I'm not sure I like my own idea that much, lol.

But yeah, if I did go for it, I think 2x Int AN would be reasonable. However, I disagree that mental damage would make any sort of actual damage to the body whatsoever. As far as I'm concerned, that would be a rare costly option to the ability to mentally attack someone, and the 'Freddy Kruegger' approach is the exception instead of the rule.

That being said, yeah, you pretty much got it.

I still need to think about it, though. Not sure I'll add it to my rules yet.

[kito]

well that is part of the good part to writing them down and reading threw it helps you to think on it more i can think of 2-3 threads I never made because half way threw I disagreed with myself and deleted the thread.

[Manah]

Yeah. Well, I seem to be in conflict with myself, because I once more think it's a really good idea. Really feels like it's missing from the rules in my opinion, lol.

[kito]

there is nuthing wrong for making the rules for it and getting a good systems down for when/if you need it or want to add it in.


Did re watch the TT judis contact last night the hole "ether get crushed by the pressure and become a diamond or fall apart" Can work for you need on mental health, and i'm sure it can be done well for a superhero story. ( I just personally feel you would need to do more of a "dark" or "real" setting for it over over just plopping it into any marvel game, as you kinda want to have this challenge added to you heroes over just having it there.)

[Manah]

Arguably, it's helpful more than a challenge. It technically gives the player more 'Health stones', although those are used for mental attacks/trauma. Also, seeing how many heroes/villains suffer from psychological troubles in regular superhero games (Wolverine's antisocial/violent tendencies, Punisher's depression and radical viewpoint change when it comes to dealing with criminals, Deadpool's insanity, Legion's MPD, and so on), I think it's pretty much appropriate to any game... just even more so in a darker game, lol. I always try to add a solid chunk of realism in my games if at all possible.

[kito]

i agree but most the hero games ive played at the table where less "real" more fun with powers i'm not saying i would not love to have it in my games (if you get a version working i might tweek it to work for me) but i just dont know if its somthing people just want ( i mean sure they suffer from thoes thing that what challenge stones are for i mean yes in horror or even D&D they fit in or are allready there but im not sure people want there "hero" affect in the same way even the dmg you take has no real permanent effect in the game its just a measure of how long till you rest you can get shot loose one white stone and never "need" a hospital sure its not real sure its "crazy" but your a hero no one askes twice or wonder how did they make it/heal, if you add this system then people will take dmg in it, it Will effect them and it my do it in wayes they don't like/control.

[Manah]

Different people, different tastes. We've never been the 'kick the door in/kill the dragon/save the princess' type, we love adding in-depth roleplaying, political manipulations, love, betrayal and more in our games, so I guess it's not for everyone. I've always been a more 'mature audiences only' kind of girl/GM. There will be hardships, extreme violence, severe loss, unfair odds, and very possible deaths in my games, but they are usually the ones we end up talking about for years.

[lilithsboy]

Nov 28, 2018 21:25:23 GMT -5 Manah said:

Honestly, I thought some more about it and I'm not sure I like my own idea that much, lol.

But yeah, if I did go for it, I think 2x Int AN would be reasonable. However, I disagree that mental damage would make any sort of actual damage to the body whatsoever. As far as I'm concerned, that would be a rare costly option to the ability to mentally attack someone, and the 'Freddy Kruegger' approach is the exception instead of the rule.

That being said, yeah, you pretty much got it.

I still need to think about it, though. Not sure I'll add it to my rules yet.

I actually agree that this should be part of the game for many games but I want to argue something here. 

In Marvel the explanation for mental attacks fool the mind into believing that the body is severely damaged. As such the heart starts to pump chemicals that normally are not released that will deal real damage to the body but in an emergency situation will also keep the body alive, if for a shorter amount of time. As the body continues to pump these chemicals the risk of stroke, cardiac arrest, ect increases. 

Now it seems that there is supposed to be some sort of sanity mechanic already in place that they did not implement well, I would like to point your attention to the psychiatry action presented in H&A 38-39. It litterally allows one to repair mental damage which is vastly longer lasting then physical damage. So not only are you correct in there needing to be a system for this but it was all but intended by the developers for this to be part of the normal game, not just the darker versions. I could also see it as a bit of a nerf to magic using characters because of the horror they they often have to go through (mad magicians are quite common) you cannot tell me that Dr. Strange just shrugs off all the stuff that happens in his comics, even when he is not in danger. 

The reason I argue the point for both kind of two fold the mental attack should be able to attack the body (we have seen far to many hearts give out under mental strain even in real life for this not to be the case) But should also have lasting consequences on characters who can easily heal the physical wounds. 

[Manah]

Good points, lilithsboy. However, as for the mental attacks may cause damage to the body, I personally think that this should be an exception rather than the rule. Most people who suffer troubles such as a stroke, cardiac arrest and so on usually have other conditions that might be the cause, such as age, being overweight and so on, so I'd say that on average, most actual physical damage arguably 'caused' by mental attacks likely have other culprits. And if they don't, then I will make such an effect occur when it makes sense as the GM instead of having a rule for it (for example, if a normal guy with Intelligence 2 and 0 Mental or Fear Defense suffers a 26 stones Fear attack, I might rule that his heart can't take it, lol.)

That being said, there would be one type of mental attack (other than telekinesis, I mean) that I would see cause actual physical damage, namely 'Generate pain' from Telepathy. That one I could see cause actual physical damage, but otherwise I would rule that most of it should come from Sanity.

UNLESS, of course, someone pays a pretty high price to have their powers cause both. Freddy Kruegger would be a good example of this, but again, to me that's the exception, not the rule.

[simonatomus777]

I think it can really work, especially if you actually impose Psychological Restrictions Challenges (but not the free white stones) appropriate to the situation and lasting until the damage is somehow mitigated. It would be good as well to see Psychiatry and Telepathy's Repair Minds option get more play, I have always wanted to work with them more but found the RAW to be too vague for my liking.

[simonatomus777]

I do agree with lilithsboy in that some especially serious mental damage, or even a lot piled on over time and never resolved, can have physiological impacts as well as psychological. I think immediately of hysterical blindness or being "struck deaf and dumb", for sake of examples. I agree with Manah as well in that such cases should be more exception than rote; on the other hand, I think a distinction should be made between powers that affect a person's sanity psychically and more mundane yet proven methods like torture or brainwashing.

I don't know precisely what different factors would be entailed in either case but I believe the latter examples might more easily induce bodily harm but obviously necessitate securing the person physically (not to mention that, particularly in the case of torture, any number of things could go wrong -- a subject could just be pushed too far to be salvaged at all, much less for the desired purpose; sometimes they can even just die, which more often than not defeats the purpose of the torture in the first place), whereas the psychic route can be done remotely within a certain range and with more reliable results, but the ability to do physical harm could require new Telepathy options with appropriate cost adjustments.

[Manah]

Thanks for the input. ^_^

Honestly, the more I think about it, the more I like it. I think I will introduce it in my house rules for future games from now on, as it's still sort of a big change to introduce in my current ones, but I think it really should be in there.

[Janus]

OK, so I can understand where you are coming from and appreciate your desire for 'realism' however. I would point out that in the vast number of comics out there there is Nothing realistic about their portrayal of mental health issues.

To give you an example. The x-men are supposed to be heroes fighting to save a world that hates and fears them. They are under more or less constant attack from practically every quarter. Their home is destroyed a couple of times a year and they see more deaths and rebirths than the bible. And yet mysteriously they are all relatively well balanced individuals. You'll excuse me if I call BS. They should all be suffering from chronic post traumatic stress as a bare minimum. The stuff they go through would 'realistically' drive most people psychotically insane. You see people come back from the dead enough life starts to lose its value and they see it a lot. Lose enough friends and family and children etc you either fight back or chronic depression and suicide will follow. Forget defending the world, you are talking doing stuff that makes the brotherhood look reasonable.

My point is that we are not dealing with a medium that works well with realism. We This escapism where psychological disorders are used as plot devices.

Just my thoughts