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Post by WildKnight on Sept 12, 2008 20:43:58 GMT -5
The human "limit" of 3 makes no sense, and heres why...
You mention good storytelling. Shouldn't an RPG REFLECT good storytelling... not make it impossible? Batman IS superior to other human beings, all the time. His feats of stamina are HARDLY rare instances... they're present in nearly every issue.
I would argue that almost all "human" super heroes have clearly surpassed the limits of human norms in the past, and very few should be restricted to 3's in attributes. Punisher is a rare exception to this rule... I can't think of him ever really showing any insane degrees of raw ability (but he's skilled out the gills).
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Post by UrbanBlue on Sept 12, 2008 23:47:46 GMT -5
I'll correct you on the Punisher point, as he has also taken enough "normal people would die" damage for a 4 in durability.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2008 23:48:20 GMT -5
3) If you think Batman isn't superhuman, I offer you my comic book collection. The man stayed awake and resisted a plague that was killing Gotham for 5 days. There is no way you could argue that Batman is just a peak human... he has become more. 4 Strength I think is questionable, BUT Batman has shown that his force of will allows him to occasionally accomplish feats beyond his apparent normal limits, so even that is passable, IMO. I am not completely sure about that. I mean, I've heard that Navy Seal Training has a phase called "Hell Week" where the Seals have to literally Stay Awake for a whole week. I've seen a thing on National Geographic about Navy Seals and they re-defined my definition of Human Peak. The Guys from weight lifting Competitions are also Good Examples of peoples with 4's in Strength, and Durability too. Like the Pillars if Hercules Contest, and that one where they throw beer Kegs over walls. That is Mind blowing, I would say that a Navy Seal or Special Agent could have a Durability of 4, but you're Average Seal is around 5'9-6", and around 150-170 lbs (So I've Read). They have AMAZING reflexes, and are pretty damn strong but not Professional Weight Lifter Strong. In Human Dynamics you can usually have one or the other. Extra Weight is hard on you for the things like Seals Do, and would decrease the strength. I would place Batman around the Same level as a Ninja or a Navy Seal as far as physical Attributes go. I think the guy I seen on that show had a gun pointed at him, and managed to dodge/grab the gun in like either.3 or .5 seconds. So, I'm going to say that would be human peek.
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Post by UrbanBlue on Sept 12, 2008 23:52:59 GMT -5
In all fairness that is different than a character staying awake for 5 days AND fighting a virus.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2008 23:58:02 GMT -5
These guys aren't just staying awake watching TV for five days. They are hard core training. So, it qualifies. They are doing things like Swimming, Matching, Field Training Exercise, and so on. I'm not taking away from Batman, I'm just saying that True Human Peek is badass.
I also one time seen a guy run two miles in like 9-10 minutes when I was in Fort Benning. Trust me when I say that's pretty damn fast.
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Post by WildKnight on Sept 13, 2008 8:25:27 GMT -5
Dude... no offense, but Navy SEALs do NOT stay awake for 5 days solid. Thats what Navy guys like to call a "fish story" Its true, they're allowed only very limited amounts of sleep during that time... but thats not the same as actually staying awake. And what they do go through is NOTHING compared to the things Batman and other "human" super heroes go through all the time. How many times per week does Batman or Daredevil wade into gunfight with just their bare fists? How many times do we see them get shot more than once in the same night and keep going? I'm sorry but unless you're a delusional 8 year old who thinks that Navy SEALs and ninjas can REALLY do the stuff you see in movies, there is just no comparison whatsoever between real world humanity and comic book humanity at its peak. As far as the Punisher bit... fine, I stand corrected. NO "normal" human hero in the comics should be constrained to "normal" limits.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2008 11:01:54 GMT -5
Well this is a direct Quote from About.com US Military, it’s NBC Affiliated and I’ve always known them to be fairly accurate on their news www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12935257/“Trainees are constantly in motion; constantly cold, hungry and wet. Mud is everywhere–it covers uniforms, hands and faces. Sand burns eyes and chafes raw skin. Medical personnel stand by for emergencies and then monitor the exhausted trainees. Sleep is fleeting–a mere three to four hours granted near the conclusion of the week. The trainees consume up to 7,000 calories a day and still lose weight.” This is a Direct Quote from Science How Stuff Works science.howstuffworks.com/navy-seal7.htm“The fourth week of Basic Conditioning is known as Hell Week. This is when students train for five days and five nights solid with a maximum total of four hours of sleep. Hell Week begins at sundown on Sunday and ends at the end of Friday. During this time, trainees face continuous training evolutions. During Hell Week, trainees get four meals a day -- sometimes MREs, but usually hot meals of unlimited quantities. Eating hot food is a substitute for being warm and dry. It gives a needed psychological boost to tired trainees, many of whom are nearly sleeping while they eat.” Finally, this is a site from The Official U.S. Navy SEAL Web Site www.seal.navy.mil/seal/buds.aspxThe first three weeks of First Phase will prepare you for the fourth week, better known as "Hell Week." During this week, you will participate in five and one-half days of continuous training, with a maximum of four hours sleep total. This week is designed as the ultimate test of one's physical and mental motivation while in First Phase. Hell Week proves to those who make it that the human body can do ten times the amount of work the average man thinks possible. During Hell Week, you will learn the value of cool headedness, perseverance, and above all, TEAMWORK. The remaining four weeks are devoted to teaching various methods of conducting hydrographic surveys and how to create a hydrographic chart. So, as of now I can find one quote that says that the sleep is only granted at the end of the week meaning that could possibly be a miss quote. Even if that’s the quote, that can’t be not more than one hour’s rest a day. It may be several small naps during the day. So, I’m not sure about their sleep schedule. Either way, I’m sure if Batman stayed up for 5 days of sleep one or two things are implied. 1. He took Cat Naps 2. He did drugs to be able to stay awake (It happens all the time, if you don’t believe me talk to any cocaine addict, or even speed addict. 3. He did a little of Both, I could see Batman taking fifteen minutes of shut eye and popping a white pill every 4 hours. I don't believe things off of TV I watch like Charlie Sheen movies, but when it comes to National Geographic I believe it merits at least some believability. Thought, an amount of skepticism is always healthy. As far as bullets go it depends on where you're shot, and how bad you're hurt. Like is said I seen a guy dodge and grab a gun at .2 seconds. Realistically your "Real" bad asses are allot more badass than you would thing if you break it down into real world science.
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Post by Jet on Sept 13, 2008 11:22:50 GMT -5
Actually, Batman uses caffeine A LOT during those times. I know its a different world, but I remember one Justice League cartoon episode, when everyone who feel asleep were trapped in nightmares. To stay awake for few days straight, he did what everyone thought was impossible- he went to a fast food restaurant and ordered coffee. A LOT of it.
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Post by WildKnight on Sept 13, 2008 12:11:05 GMT -5
Which, by the way is absurd. If you drink a ton of caffeine you'll crash eventually. Study a little bio-chemistry people.
F-Bomb, you're being irrational. Even the slightest knowledge of Batman storylines in the years since Crisis on Infinite Earths (the only stories that matter, because everything before that is retconned out of existence) show him doing things that are blatantly super-human.
You can attempt to compare getting four hours of sleep over 5 days with not sleeping at all for a week. You can attempt to claim that its "implied" Batman catnapped (even though Alfred, Nightwing, Oracle, AND Robin ALL state very plainly that he never slept at all...), but its all just hot air
Admit facts. Batman (and most "human" costumed heroes in comics) execute super-human feats all the time, usually in the arena of stamina (or in game terms, Durability).
While we're at it, haven't you ever noticed that EVERYBODY has a healing factor? Nightwing breaks his arm and it takes him a couple of weeks to get back to normal (and he was fighting crime with his arm in a sling the whole time). Batman gets shot in the gut and complains about the pain for a COUPLE OF DAYS. Daredevil gets shot, stabbed, and goes rounds with guys that make Mike Tyson look like your grade school bully... and then goes out and does it again night after night after night.
NOBODY can do that in the real world. NOBODY. Take the stardust out of your eyes about the special forces and get on board the reality train.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2008 12:17:44 GMT -5
Dude your being irrational, and ignoring the facts. We've seen Batman Drink coffee before, and if you really think that he didn't occasionally get a little shut eye or nod off for a few minutes then you're being realistic. I'm not saying that Batman isn't a comic book hero, and that he's not unrealistic. I'm just saying that Staying up for 5 days and working on something important isn't an Unrealistic situation. People do it all the time.
Also, have you ever seen anyone shot with a 9 millimeter while there on PCP? It doesn't stop them, and they have insane strength. Not to Adrenaline Rushes that have caused Petite women to life cars off of loved ones.
I'm not saying that batman is a spitting Image of a Real guy. I'm just saying that people are capable of amazing Feats in Real life.
I am talking about the Reality Train, and The Board is a fiction Train. Pardon Me if I'm one of the few people in the world who appreciates what the real human body can do.
Just because I tried to shine a little realism on a legendary comic book character doesn't mean I'm doing angel dust. It just means I like to find real world ways that relate to comic book characters
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Post by WildKnight on Sept 13, 2008 12:29:49 GMT -5
I'm not being irrational... I'm using a little thing called "precedent" to point out a hole in the theory that Batman is no better than a peak human, and a little thing called "references" to back myself up.
You're attempting to muddy the waters by suggesting facts not in evidence (i.e. "Batman MUST have slept")
About the coffee; Im not saying Batman doesn't drink it. In fact, I'd say the guy probably would be a big fan! My point is that if you know anything about bio-chemistry, you can't stay awake for days on end on just caffeine. After a while the stuff builds up in your body, and the "crash" effect becomes stronger than the energizing one.
I'd also like to point out that, in DC comics, its been about 5 years since 1986 (Crisis on Infinite Earths), and Batman's post-crisis background reboot puts him as having started his career in Gotham at the age of 28. Add to that the 10 years that he operated prior to the Crisis (Batman & Superman's post Crisis continuity had them both premiering around the same time, about a decade prior to the Crisis), and you've got a Batman who is 43 years old(ish). 15 years of nightly fighting, being shot, stabbed, mentally and emotionally put through the ringer... and don't even get me STARTED on the stuff he's gone through with the Justice League, how many times he's taken full-force punches from aliens who were as strong as Martian Manhunter, traveled through space (which takes years off your life, by the way, by destroying the calcium in your bones)... I could go on, but the point is simple; Batman can and frequently does do things no man can do. His body is able to withstand punishment no humans could.
Batman. is. super-human.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2008 12:45:07 GMT -5
I also used References to back up my argument. My Argument was that Navy Seals Stayed up in Hell week for five days and a half, and I also admitted that Given the Evidence that They probably did get four hours sleep Total during that time.
I've seen batman sleep before too, that's why I said he probably took a few minutes to look at the back of his eyelids on those long weeks. So, on that much we do agree on.
I never said hat Batman was Joe Regular, I just said that other people could stay up for long periods at a time too, and some people are abnormally strong, fast, or Agile.
If Batman was a real guy he wouldn't be able to adventure not, in fact he'd probably be dead. If the DC Writers could put the things they wanted to in comics we might even see batman popping Speed Pills like truck drivers do when they have a long haul to make instead of just drinking Coffee. That alone would give him a heart attack eventually, and might kill him (if he were Real).
He wouldn't be acrobatic either, because with all the broke bones and Ribs he'd be in constant pain, and he would have trouble bending his joints. IF he started at 28 his body would have already started to go down hill by them, and unless he took testosterone he would be on his way to the bottom. Well, your testosterone level doesn't decrease as much until you're in your mid thirties, but still.
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Post by nivar on Sept 13, 2008 14:30:41 GMT -5
F-Bomb, stop trying to prove whatever your trying to prove. We all know that Batman could probably go a couple weeks without sleep. It's the same as going out and fighting a bunch of crazy dudes every night, then beaming up to space and stopping a intergalactic threat. The key is that Batman never stop's hoping. He could get shot, stabbed, bones shattered, etc., but as long as his mind endures, he's not done.
Face it, Batman is superhuman.
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Post by MadCap on Sept 13, 2008 16:03:24 GMT -5
I have issues with this, but don't know how to fully articulate it. But an interesting take, to be sure. I'll clarify: it's not the way I'd build Batman (and clearly it wasn't the way I did.) But I can see what you went for. Seeing 4's for Batman's Abilities just makes me uncomfortable. Then again, I think Daredevil should have a 3 Agility, so that's how lame I am. But Daredevil has Superhuman agility (due to superior inner ear/sense of balance). MadCap
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2008 19:43:03 GMT -5
F-Bomb, stop trying to prove whatever your trying to prove. We all know that Batman could probably go a couple weeks without sleep. It's the same as going out and fighting a bunch of crazy dudes every night, then beaming up to space and stopping a intergalactic threat. The key is that Batman never stop's hoping. He could get shot, stabbed, bones shattered, etc., but as long as his mind endures, he's not done. Face it, Batman is superhuman. Actually if you read my post you would have read that I agreed that Batman was super human
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