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Post by takewithfood on Feb 16, 2009 18:47:28 GMT -5
This list is almost done! Some of what remains is really easy to finish off (growth/shrink, for example). There are a couple misc rules that should also be handled, but after that I'm going to run my test game. Can't wait!
~TWF
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Post by malice on Feb 17, 2009 19:46:07 GMT -5
I think Flight is one of the very few actions with no need for re-workingl. It's reasonably priced for all it can do, and it's pretty straightforward what the action does.
Basing your flying carrying capacity on Strength makes sense only part of the time (a small part).
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 17, 2009 19:52:40 GMT -5
Yeah, I touched on Flight, but the only major change was to turn Blasting into Flight options.
Can you give examples of times when Strength limiting your carrying capacity doesn't make sense?
~TWF
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 17, 2009 19:57:42 GMT -5
Personally I think its idiotic that you can use Flight stones to carry weight... BUT either we have to believe that Angel has super strength, or that Flight power = lifting power in the Marvel Universe.
Angel has lifted both Juggernaut and The Blob off the ground in the past. Both of them weigh well more than he should be able to lift under normal circumstances.
That said, this is one instance where I'm more than willing to sacrifice comic book reality for a small dose of reality reality. If you can't lift something, you shouldn't be able to fly with it either.
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 17, 2009 20:00:42 GMT -5
Ha ha, seriously? Angel lifted The Blob? That is so silly. ^__^
Oh, comic books. Your stories are entertaining even if they make no sense. Rather like a drunken hobo.
~TWF
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Post by malice on Feb 17, 2009 20:14:34 GMT -5
If you fly without visible wings or other flight-inducing characteristics, what makes you fly? Whatever it is, a lot of Marvel characters have it. They defy gravity by unknown means and force, so how can you know that their force is too little OR too much?
You can restrict their lifting capacity by their body's ability to hold together under certain strain and their grip, but if you can't explain how they fly then why do you think you can explain why they can't lift much?
People can carry more than they can lift, and they can just hold more than than can carry or lift. I can keep more weight off the ground than I can lift off the ground, and I can walk carrying things that are too heavy for me to lift above my head.
So if all the character has to do is hold on and their flight is achieved by unknown means, then you default to their flight AN.
It's not that I don't see the argument for using strength, I'm just saying that Marvel makes other arguments.
Personally I think the solution is here:
Flight AN +1
You grow a pair of wings (Bat, bug, feathered, etc. Up to you), bio-jets, or other visible organs that let you fly. Your speed is determined by your action number on the D&R. You can only carry as much as you normally could according to your strength or your Flight AN, whichever is lower.
Advantages: +1 to cost level to fly without visible means (i.e. no wings). This also allows you to carry up to your strength + 1 or your Flight AN, whichever is lower. You also make no noise while flying at low speeds.
P.S. Angel/Archangel SUCKS. Least-creative character concept beside Wolverine.
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 17, 2009 20:41:39 GMT -5
I suppose we could chalk a lot of it up to Comicbook Physics (Superman can lift a building, and amazingly it holds together! But if he punches said building, he just knocks down a wall. COMIC BOOK PHYSICS, YAY!)
The advantage you propose is neat, but I think probably not worth +1 CL. I mean, Strength +1 isn't a huge difference.
I think we're better off just not thinking about it.
~TWF
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Post by malice on Feb 17, 2009 20:56:04 GMT -5
I suppose we could chalk a lot of it up to Comicbook Physics (Superman can lift a building, and amazingly it holds together! But if he punches said building, he just knocks down a wall. COMIC BOOK PHYSICS, YAY!) The advantage you propose is neat, but I think probably not worth +1 CL. I mean, Strength +1 isn't a huge difference. I think we're better off just not thinking about it. ~TWF *shrug* I consider the advantage well worth it. You gain silent flight (makes sense for the same reasons your ability to fly DOESN'T make sense) and no one can tear off your flight-inducing organs or appendages. The Strength + 1 thing is just a minor modification that was put in place to emphasize the fact that Marvel character who fly without visible means are also lifting without visible means. I wouldn't actually write the advantage like that. I was asked to produce examples of when strength limiting carrying capacity doesn't makes sense, and I did my best. Hell, Physical Invulnerability would be plenty reason to keep strength from limiting your carrying capacity. You can't be torn apart, and whatever invisible means you fly by then becomes the means you lift by. Can't grip it? Tie it to yourself. You're physically invulnderable and therefore immune to be crushed or torn apart by physical weight. What if the advantage made your flying carrying capacity limited by: (Str OR Dur OR Toughness) OR Flight AN, whichever is lower. However if you possess physical invulnerability and fly without visible means then you can lift anything up to your flight AN.
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Post by Dionon on Feb 17, 2009 21:01:05 GMT -5
I vote for not touching it.. way too much hassle.... UNLESS
Flight +0 : Lifting left to Strength Flight +2 : Lifting left to Strength or Flight AN whichever is higher...
Boom headshot
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Post by Neros on Feb 18, 2009 10:24:23 GMT -5
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Post by malice on Feb 18, 2009 15:42:42 GMT -5
I hadn't intended it to include "Limited Maneuverability" for no other reason than I didn't think of that. Also, MURPG makes a point of starting characters out powerful. An average 40+unlimited Force Blaster can level several city blocks (Side note: One of the things that balances Force Blast against Ranged Combat is that bullets are pretty useless against anything other than individual targets). So as far as I'm concerned people who buy flight immediately have what D&D would call "Perfect" maneuverability.
My main point in attacking flight as a "Problem Action" was that if you aren't more strict about what actions are "Problems" then you may as well just list them all. "I would like to tweak/edit this slightly" isn't the same as "This action causes problems in games consistently". Who cares how much you can carry while flying? Most GMs can House Rule that kind of thing on the spot to very good effect.
Also, can we flag certain actions as "unique"? I thought about starting a thread about it but I think it's better to just include an asterisk or something in this one. It's important to identify unique actions because they're unique in how they work and therefore uniquely problematic IF they're a problem action. This isn't the same as just being a problem action, which suggests there is a problem with the description, execution, or pricing. This is simply being an action that doesn't behave like others and should therefore be approached especially carefully.
The following list is NOT my recommendations for "Problem Actions", it's a list of actions I consider "unique". Actions I speak of include:
Force Field: Unique because it doubles the stones you spend in the action. No other action does this. This is NOT the same as a +2 advantage (like 2x damage). Doubling stones spent is several times as powerful as doubling stones that get through enemy defense.
Invisibility: Unique because the action number, NOT the amount of stones spent, determines how powerful the power is with each individual use. You never need to spend more than 2 stones in this action.
Energy Absorption/Reflection: Acts as a modifier most of the time
Steal Superpower: Acts as a modifier all of the time
Shape Shifting: Same as Invisibility
Phoenix Force (Or any Ultra-powered action): Dramatically alters energy reserve and power limit
Mastery of Magic: Unique because it requires two panels... and therefore always allows two panels for players to invest stones above and beyond the AN and decide what the power does.
...maybe I should've started another thread. I just wanted people to be careful with their edits.
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