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Post by de5pa1r on Feb 9, 2009 21:57:16 GMT -5
The idea is that instead of making a giant chart of every weapon ever that lists the respective effects of each weapon, that instead the player can customize the way in which the character will use his weapon(s).
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Post by Dionon on Feb 9, 2009 22:01:28 GMT -5
It's not that we're making a chart of every weapon ever..... A few classes of weapon will confer benefits, while the majority just are for flavor.
Like... for example....
A bat, a stick, and a quarterstaff pretty much all serve the same purpose... but, none of them would really give in-game bonuses.. they're too weak....
On the other hand, Cap's Shield might give you a bonus to Defense, or an AP ranged attack... Or Spiderman's Web Shooters might give your RC the ability to Entangle your enemies...
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 9, 2009 22:38:57 GMT -5
I think its best to describe what qualifies for a certain bonus. x2 damage weapons should deal brutal blows when they actually hit (like large clubs and large guns). Efficient weapons should be fluid, balanced and graceful (like katanas).
How do you guys feel about +damage rather than modifiers? What if, say, a knife deals +1 damage? To be honest, it isn't much easier to stab someone than it is to punch someone - but I'd rather be punched than stabbed, know what I mean?
~TWF
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Post by Dionon on Feb 9, 2009 22:46:17 GMT -5
What you're saying TWF would make a certain amount of sense... but I think what WK had in mind was that getting rid of the bonuses entirely and making the weapons give advantages to CC and RC is more balanced then adding to damage.
Yes you'd rather get punched then stabbed, but maybe that's because, instead of doing more damage... it lowers one of your stats by 1... Like if you get stabbed in the leg... it would lower your speed or agility by 1... cause... have you ever tried to walk with a knife in your leg... Surprisingly, I have... it's freakin hard...
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 9, 2009 22:48:31 GMT -5
That depends on one very important question; by who?
The key difference between a knife and a punch comes at the hands of the inexperienced wielder. A person that doesn't know how to throw a punch probably won't hurt you much. A person that doesn't know how to use a knife or fire a gun can still get lucky and ruin your day.
When dealing with skilled wielders, its a fact that you can be completely incapacitated or killed with a single blow from a well-trained fighter. Moreover, in terms of lasting damage, I would much rather be stabbed than be thrown into a joint lock by a skilled grappler. The knife wound will almost certainly heal faster, and the pain of having your joints displaced is indescribable (and will probably last the rest of your life).
Of course, as I've said before... armor does change the equation significantly. With my bare hands I can incapacitate a man easily, but if he's wearing a full suit of armor, I'd much rather have a sword to do it with... but "armor" in Marvel doesn't follow real world rules any more than weapons do (given that women can gain the same protective benefit from a mini-skirt and a top that barely qualifies as a bra as a man does from a full body suit and cowl...)
In general I dislike the idea of things doing "more damage" because the functional difference between that and just getting more stones for free in general is so little.
I think its important to note that I definitely think that some weapons should have modifiers, but that they shouldn't be nearly as high as they had gotten in most peoples minds in MURPG. A rocket launcher, for instance, shouldn't have to be a +8 weapon because a rifle could be a +6...
IMO, most "small arms" (knives, swords, axes, and firearms up to and including your general hunting rifles and military combat rifles) should provide no bonus, while truly nasty stuff like Sniper Rifles and Rocket Launchers should provide a small bonus along with a built-in benefit (X3 damage and Area Affect, respectively).
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 9, 2009 23:03:46 GMT -5
I'm in agreement about the +damage, I just wanted to see what everyone else thought. ^__^
My dislike of the +damage concept is mostly based on how binary it makes a fight. The skilled/unskilled argument didn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Your point seems to be in contrasting two different situations:
Situation 1: unskilled unarmed guy vs unskilled knife guy Verdict: Knife guy has a moderate advantage because if he hits, he's likely to do some damage; unarmed guy is unlikely to do much damage even if he hits (proven without a doubt by youtube emo kid fight videos)
I'd say this is held up by the +1 damage issue. Compared to the tiny stone counts these guys are dishing out, +1 damage represents a noticeable advantage.
Situation 2: skilled unarmed guy vs skilled knife guy Verdict: Knife barely, if at all makes a difference in the fight. Unarmed guy is just as deadly.
I'd say this still holds up. Compared to the large number of stones these guys are dishing out, +1 damage is less significant.
I think +1 damage can be a reasonable bonus for some very small arms. It's much worse than x2 damage (as the minimum damage increase conferred by x2 damage is +1). It would be nice to give SOMETHING to every weapon.
~TWF
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 9, 2009 23:23:14 GMT -5
My suggestion:
range 2 For: thrown weapons (throwing knives, etc)
range 3 For: projectile weapons (slings, bow and arrow, crossbow), shotguns
range 4 For: firearms (most guns), custom projectile weapons (Hawkeye's bow)
range 5 For: specialty weapons (sniper rifles, rocket launchers)
+1 damage For: small arms (combat knife, police batons, 9mm pistols, and holdout pistols) and improvised weapons (2x4, claw hammer, lead pipe)
x2 damage For: heavy weapons (large sword, fire axe), heavy firearms (hunting rifles, assault rifles, shotguns?)
x3 damage For: munitions (grenades, rocket launchers, high powered rifles, high tech weaponry)
Reach For: long weapons (spears, lances, whips, telephone poles) Bonus: +1 stone of defense against Close Combat attacks that do not also have Reach property
Armor Penetration For: specialty ammunition (teflon-coated bullets, depleted uranium rockets, high powered rifles) Note: I think I'm liking the concept of a limit on HOW armor pentrating something is. Teflon bullets might be AP1, for example: enough to negate a kevlar vest.
Efficient For: highly graceful weapons (katana, epee) Note: requires a relevant specialty to take advantage of this effect
Auto Fire For: automatic firearms (assault rifles, SMGs) Bonus: When splitting stones between multiple targets, gain +1 stone per target. Note: requires a relevant specialty to take advantage of this effect
Area of Effect For: asplosions! (grenades, rockets, flame throwers maybe?) Note: size of area should be static and specific to weapon
Obviously, some weapons may qualify for more than one effect. A quality/custom katana might gain Efficient AND x2 damage (not because they're really that great in real life, but because they're depicted as that great in comics). A 9mm pistol would get +1 damage AND range 4. A thrown knife, however, might only get range 2.
Other special rounds might exist for hunting particular targets. I saw a Purifier use special bullets that pierced a force field once. *shrug* It's comics.
Not married to any of this, just testing out the waters. Thoughts?
~TWF
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Post by Dionon on Feb 9, 2009 23:57:28 GMT -5
You know.... that's not bad... And it pretty much covers everything... You're a genius TWF... now if you would only acquiesce that I'm right over in the healing department... we'd be on our way
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 10, 2009 0:08:30 GMT -5
I'm not sure what this does to Claws, though. A +3 Claws modifier sure sounds pretty tasty compared to any of this stuff.
Perhaps Wolverine should just have x2 damage and armor penetration.
But yeah, honestly, now that I've made the list, it isn't half bad. My initial complaint was that there aren't enough effects to go around, but stupid me, I didn't realize that weapons were just lumped into 1 stone, 2 stone, etc categories.
Also, considering that most of these are existing advantages, it should be easy to price weapons. This seriously nerfs the Combats, especially Ranged - this seems like a good thing, mostly.
Psi Weapon so needs to get its neck on the chopping block. Honestly, with this system in place, Psylocke should just have Stun Option for Close Combat.
~TWF
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Post by Dionon on Feb 10, 2009 0:28:23 GMT -5
Wolverine's Claws would be that Generic Combat Modifier that Wildknight thought up and I agree with fully....
But his Generic Combat Modifier would have a Level 4 Material Rating (another good thing we should put in here) making it able to piece anything but a level 4 material....
And, I agree that Psi-Weapon would give the Stun Option to Close Combat, but I think it should do more than that.... Perhaps Psi Weapon (as it can create any weapon under the sun if you want it too...) Can give you Any advantage under the sun, but it ONLY does Stun Damage if add any options...
Like.... take the Psi Weapon action... have say 4 stones in it... It could be a 3x damage modifier to Close Combat, BUT... it ONLY does Stun Damage in this case.... This way, Psi Weapon is incredibly versatile, but any act of versatility will trigger Stun Damage only.
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 10, 2009 0:34:08 GMT -5
Does anyone other than Psylocke have Psi Weapon? Getting sleepy and can't think of any others. Can she really make any weapon? I ask because I'm wondering if I should be thinking of her as the textbook case or not.
If Psi Weapon should be able to create any weapon, you're right, Dio, the mechanic is right there in front of us. Perhaps whatever costs we determine for these weapons, the character would have to spend a similar amount in energy to manifest the weapon.
~TWF
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Post by Kaimontfendo on Feb 10, 2009 3:28:47 GMT -5
I like TWF's suggestion quite a bit, actually. Some part of me tries to say that a police baton should have "damage or stun at will," but that's easy enough to remedy.
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 10, 2009 7:22:20 GMT -5
I have a serious problem with giving a +1 bonus to a knife or handgun, because then it becomes a war of attrition to get bigger weapon bonuses, and thats one of the biggest problems with MURPG.
If a handgun is +1, SURELY a rifle should be +2. A sniper rifle is AT LEAST double that, so +4. And now we're back to our +8 missile launcher...
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 10, 2009 8:24:09 GMT -5
WK, I'm only suggesting we hand out +1 damage. I don't think we should do +2 damage, +3 damage or anything higher than that. The next step above +1 damage is x2 damage.
Basically, any weapon that doesn't deserve x2 damage, but that should reasonably confer SOME bonus, no matter how tiny, should be +1 damage. Honestly, +1 damage is hardly anything. Statistically about 1/3rd of attacks will see an actual increase in damage dealt.
~TWF
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 10, 2009 11:49:26 GMT -5
I thought about suggesting "Reach" as an effect, mimicking the strange range that tongue/tendril/tail whips have (for staves, whips and Daredevil's billyclubs), but seriously, I don't really know what to make of that rule.
What exactly does being just outside close combat range mean? What does it do for you? Does someone have to spend movement to reach you? I don't really get it. Maybe someone else does..?
~TWF
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