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Post by takewithfood on Feb 16, 2009 11:47:40 GMT -5
It's not just that it needs to be nerfed - it's that we already have a great mechanic for Close Combat. Why do ninjas have to bundle their close combat and thieving skills?
That much bundling also caused problems with LOEs. When you can effectively improve 4 Actions (including Concentration) at the same time, you're going to end up being relatively uber in short order.
But again, it just isn't necessary to have them all as one Action. It feels a little too much like a Character Class for my tastes.
~TWF
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Post by vjcsmoke on Feb 16, 2009 11:48:45 GMT -5
I already said that concentration should be removed. And how is having a bundle different from combining action boxes except that you're buying it all together from the begining? If it's only a question of your taste, and it doesn't look to have an impact on balance in 2.0 why does it need to be nerfed into ONLY thieving?
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 16, 2009 11:50:19 GMT -5
It's not very different than combining boxes - only why should it be the default? Lowest common denominator.
~TWF
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Post by vjcsmoke on Feb 16, 2009 11:51:53 GMT -5
That's not a very convincing argument to get rid of it entirely.
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 16, 2009 11:54:59 GMT -5
We aren't getting rid of it entirely, we're just breaking it back down into its component pieces. It's inherently more balanced that way. If GMs let you combine them back up again, no harm no foul.
~TWF
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 16, 2009 12:07:22 GMT -5
Uh... I think the math alone explains why it shouldn't be left "as is" sans Concentration.
Close Combat + additional Modifier = AN+5 Ranged Cobmat + 2 additional Modifiers = AN+10! Thievery = AN Concentration = AN+2
OR
Ninja = AN+5
Hmmmm...
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Post by vjcsmoke on Feb 16, 2009 12:09:56 GMT -5
You're charging +5 for an additional weapon bonus? REALLY? In 2.0?? And the linear addition of CL is disingenuous when comparing to separate actions, since they would apply to the separate actions singly. And I already said that it doesn't make sense to give concentration to ninja for free and I'm in favor of removing it.
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 16, 2009 12:19:26 GMT -5
An extra weapon mod is still pretty useful.
Consider someone dual wielding swords (which grant x2 damage). Two applications of x2 damage become x3 damage. While this may only seem like a +2 CL increase, consider that, if desired, the character could pick up a different weapon and get a different bonus. The sheer power is weakened, but the versatility of choosing different bonuses helps make up for it.
~TWF
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 16, 2009 12:52:37 GMT -5
Okay, lets assume we're not. Lets assume we're charging +2 for an additional Mod (which I disagree with... the idea is to keep DOWN the number of mods, free stones, and stones in general, not encourage people to use more...)
Ninja is still AN +5
Vs.
Close Combat + Additional Mod = AN+2 Ranged Combat + 2 Additional Mods = AN+4 Thievery = AN
The math still suggests Ninja is abusive.
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Post by vjcsmoke on Feb 16, 2009 12:57:26 GMT -5
Okay, lets assume we're not. Lets assume we're charging +2 for an additional Mod (which I disagree with... the idea is to keep DOWN the number of mods, free stones, and stones in general, not encourage people to use more...) Ninja is still AN +5 Vs. Close Combat + Additional Mod = AN+2 Ranged Combat + 2 Additional Mods = AN+4 Thievery = AN The math still suggests Ninja is abusive. Why does ranged combat get 2 additional mods? Are you trying to shoot 3 different weapons with your ninja? Ranged combat comes with a single weapon bonus mod for free because it doesn't get ability bonus. BTW isn't Ninja perfectly suited for gun + sword character like Deadpool? Can we give some examples of how ninja is considered 'broken' and thus needs fixing in 2.0 when all you are getting are weapon effects and at most a very modest bonus?
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 16, 2009 13:01:34 GMT -5
I'm done repeating myself to you, vjc. WK has explained himself well enough that I think my dog gets it now. I'm going to move on to something else now.
~TWF
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 16, 2009 13:02:05 GMT -5
It gets two additional mods because you're GETTING two additional Modifiers with Ninja over Ranged Combat.
RC gets one mod, a weapon.
Ninja gets TWO weapons, OR 1 Weapon and an Ability. Thats two additional mods, not one.
As far as your Deadpool example, its like this... "Ranged Combat +1 Can Combine with Close Combat"
And look at that... you can do a Close & Ranged Attack in the same Action ;D
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Post by vjcsmoke on Feb 16, 2009 13:05:03 GMT -5
It gets two additional mods because you're GETTING two additional Modifiers with Ninja over Ranged Combat. RC gets one mod, a weapon. Ninja gets TWO weapons, OR 1 Weapon and an Ability. Thats two additional mods, not one. As far as your Deadpool example, its like this... "Ranged Combat +1 Can Combine with Close Combat" And look at that... you can do a Close & Ranged Attack in the same Action ;D Ok, I don't think that ability bonus should apply to a ranged weapon. That's just wrong. I think the wording on ninja needs to be cleaned up. Let me look into this real quick and I'll reformat it.
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Post by vjcsmoke on Feb 16, 2009 13:11:50 GMT -5
Ninja AN+5
Rules for Action Box:
-Ability Bonus OR 2 weapon modifiers -Close or Ranged Combat -Split stones for multiple targets -May use action for stealth-like actions with appropriate specialty taken. Specialty examples: Assassination, Weapons by type, disguise, stealth, stalk, etc.
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Post by Dionon on Feb 16, 2009 13:25:28 GMT -5
In vjc's defense... Ninja generally have a specific combat set....
But, vjc, I can achieve that combat set, by buying Spider-Man's close combat... it's 6 stones... Happy day.
As for everything else Ninja could do, I appreciate you being the last man to stick your guns (Truly I do, Invention 2.0 anyone?) but you're trying to ride a dead horse here... it's just not going anywhere.
In all cases, Ninja is a better option as it is in 1.0 then Any combination of actions that make it up.
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