|
Post by Reaver on May 18, 2010 18:47:17 GMT -5
I would be up for play testing if your up to it.
|
|
|
Post by Hypester on May 24, 2010 15:28:56 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by takewithfood on May 24, 2010 17:36:30 GMT -5
I had a quick read through; can you explain the Counter/Reversal mechanic in more detail, maybe with an example?
The reason I've always had difficulty writing that sort of thing is that it always comes out better than a regular attack; usually you're defending yourself AND attacking at the same time, whereas your opponent is only attacking. Thus, there is almost no reason to do anything else; and when two people with the Counter option fight each other, nothing will happen (since they'll both be waiting for the other guy to make the blunder of attacking instead of trying to counter).
If we can find a way around that, that would be neat. I like giving players a lot of options in combat, so that they have the fun of having to choose what to do, instead of having one big attack that they can and would be stupid not to use over and over and over again. Without options, fights become predetermined.
~TWF
|
|
|
Post by Neros on Jun 8, 2010 3:41:48 GMT -5
Phew, that was allot of reading.. Not sure I got it all Firstly, great idea for a lite side of MURPG for more normal settings.. Its always been one of MURPGs drawbacks that playing in any more normal settings makes all the characters seem very similar.. Abilities: I think it would be Okay to increase the max Strength one notch more.. The higher the max is, the greater variation can be created in the characters (ofcourse, the weight row should follow the notch).. Counter Attack: I don't think it is necesary to create new rules for this.. Even though you want realism, there is no need to make allot of extra rules.. If you split you're stones between attack and defense, I can easily see it as the character performing counter attacks aswell as normal attacks.. All up to how the panel is described.. Combat Actions: I like getting them split up.. But I think that Unarmed and Melee combat should be able to defend against Range Combat when in close combat.. Its rather easy to evade a bullet, when its actually not the bullet you have to dodge, but the direction the gunbarrel/bow is aiming.. Which is much easier when you are close to someone.. 1. But what does that +1 Specialities option do? It sais lessens situational modifiers, but what could that be? 2. Catching bullets with melee combat? So you catch it with you're sword/whip/spear/axe? 3. Making Disarm a option seems abit wrong.. Anyone can aim a kick/punch at someones hand to attempt to knock the weapon out of the hand.. If you still want this to be an option, then grappling should also be, since its just as a standard thing.. Or atleast in my mind Dirty Fighting / Trick Shooting: So why should I choose this instead of a Modifier that always adds X number of stones each panel to a action?
|
|
|
Post by takewithfood on Jun 8, 2010 8:31:49 GMT -5
Again, thanks for the feedback! I'll try to address what needs to be addressed.. Abilities: I think it would be Okay to increase the max Strength one notch more.. The higher the max is, the greater variation can be created in the characters (ofcourse, the weight row should follow the notch).. Yeah, they could go one higher for completely or very nearly powerless games. However, this is meant for games that have at least some powers in them (I'm mostly designing it for my Buffy game, but leaving it open to other uses, too.) A Slayer would probably have Str 6, and I wanted to leave lots of room for stuff that's stronger than a Slayer. I agree, really. At least, there isn't a need for a complex rule. But it seems to be something that a lot of people want, for some reason. There is a famous clip of a guy being shot at, at point blank range, by a very disgruntled fellow with a revolver. The victim had a tree for cover, and basically played hard to get by hiding around it. The tree wasn't even as thick around as he was, but he still managed to use it well enough to survive the attack. I think he was grazed a few times, but it was weird watching the shooter methodically unload his gun at the guy, run out of ammo, then walk away. But without an obstacle, it's actually pretty easy to get yourself shot at point blank range, isn't it? At least by anyone trained. I toss a lot of modifiers around: fighting on shaky ground (like a boat or a slanted rooftop), with impaired vision (smoke or bad lighting), higher/lower ground, while holding something or someone awkwardly, etc. A specialty represents disciplined training (the actual style is mostly flavour) rather than just natural talent. This really isn't any different than in regular MURPG. Woops, that's an artifact from when I copied and posted it from somewhere else. I thought I fixed that.. lol Have you ever tried kicking a sword out of someone's hand? It's harder than it sounds. If you don't have the option but you want to try it anyway, you have two options: a) spend a drama stone to use an Option you haven't purchased, or b) throw some stones into something logical and see what the GM allows. Just because there is an option with a certain set of rules doesn't mean that doing it is completely impossible without the option. But if it really does end up a problem, I can write a default set of rules and make the +1CL disarm option a better version; essentially akin to a very specialized specialty. Well, for starters, it's a little cheaper than a typical Generic Modifier (I'm updating my rules, but a generic modifier with no condition comes out at MN+5 CL). Compared to a low MN modifier, you're basically betting that combat won't last long - especially if you exhaust your tricks. Also, it can be used ON TOP OF a modifier, which is what can make it really worth buying. As with all my proposed rules, though, the cost can come down if necessary.
|
|
|
Post by Neros on Jun 8, 2010 10:10:33 GMT -5
Yeah, they could go one higher for completely or very nearly powerless games. However, this is meant for games that have at least some powers in them (I'm mostly designing it for my Buffy game, but leaving it open to other uses, too.) A Slayer would probably have Str 6, and I wanted to leave lots of room for stuff that's stronger than a Slayer. Well, I can really use this for some of my own game ideas where there is less focus on super abilities, and more on powers.. But even though the scale goes from 1-10, it can still be breached, so even though a normal humans maximum Strength is 6 (or whatever it is set at), the scale can still continue.. So you can easily run into things which are stronger than a slayer I agree, really. At least, there isn't a need for a complex rule. But it seems to be something that a lot of people want, for some reason. Maybe because it looks cool? .. But I really don't think this needs rules.. Just abit of narrating and pulish There is a famous clip of a guy being shot at, at point blank range, by a very disgruntled fellow with a revolver. The victim had a tree for cover, and basically played hard to get by hiding around it. The tree wasn't even as thick around as he was, but he still managed to use it well enough to survive the attack. I think he was grazed a few times, but it was weird watching the shooter methodically unload his gun at the guy, run out of ammo, then walk away. But without an obstacle, it's actually pretty easy to get yourself shot at point blank range, isn't it? At least by anyone trained. Uuuh, thats a good tree.. Hehe, but yea, if you are better trained than the target, you will likely hit him.. If you don't, he must have been better trained than you after all... Or placed more stones which might actually mean the same But this would give a reason for not using Range Combat when people are close, and give a close combatant a reason to get close to his opponent (besides the reason to punch his lights out).. I toss a lot of modifiers around: fighting on shaky ground (like a boat or a slanted rooftop), with impaired vision (smoke or bad lighting), higher/lower ground, while holding something or someone awkwardly, etc. A specialty represents disciplined training (the actual style is mostly flavour) rather than just natural talent. This really isn't any different than in regular MURPG. Like in the regular.. So you also gain a +1 when fighting someone who dosn't have the style you are using? But also, then there are styles which are wastly better than others.. Boxing for example dosn't really train you in anything, besides strike and evade.. While more exotic styles might train you to fight blind or on woobly ground.. Have you ever tried kicking a sword out of someone's hand? It's harder than it sounds. If you don't have the option but you want to try it anyway, you have two options: a) spend a drama stone to use an Option you haven't purchased, or b) throw some stones into something logical and see what the GM allows. Just because there is an option with a certain set of rules doesn't mean that doing it is completely impossible without the option. But if it really does end up a problem, I can write a default set of rules and make the +1CL disarm option a better version; essentially akin to a very specialized specialty. No I havent, but I don't have Close Combat 1... Or maybe I do.. Havn' tried before.. But the same goes for grappling.. Its hard to do a prober grapple since you have to get the right hold, and such But for someone who have tried fighting (and even does it for a living), hitting specific targets becomes natural.. Like having Close Combat 10.. You can hit the guys hand without to much problems since you are so skilled, but if he holds a weapon in it, you can first get rid of it if you have a option.. Well, for starters, it's a little cheaper than a typical Generic Modifier (I'm updating my rules, but a generic modifier with no condition comes out at MN+5 CL). Compared to a low MN modifier, you're basically betting that combat won't last long - especially if you exhaust your tricks. Also, it can be used ON TOP OF a modifier, which is what can make it really worth buying. As with all my proposed rules, though, the cost can come down if necessary. Aaah, okay then, we just need to test it, compare it, pull it and strip it down to see if it works just right XD
|
|
|
Post by takewithfood on Jun 8, 2010 11:23:49 GMT -5
Yeah, they could go one higher for completely or very nearly powerless games. However, this is meant for games that have at least some powers in them (I'm mostly designing it for my Buffy game, but leaving it open to other uses, too.) A Slayer would probably have Str 6, and I wanted to leave lots of room for stuff that's stronger than a Slayer. Well, I can really use this for some of my own game ideas where there is less focus on super abilities, and more on powers.. But even though the scale goes from 1-10, it can still be breached, so even though a normal humans maximum Strength is 6 (or whatever it is set at), the scale can still continue.. So you can easily run into things which are stronger than a slayer That's absolutely possible, it just isn't what I'm trying to accomplish here. Like I said already, this was designed for a Buffy game, and in part just to see how much work it would be to basically redesign the game. For even lower-powered games (I was thinking of running a Street Fighter game..), all you have to do is adjust the charts a little. The Actions don't need to change much. Just be careful, though, that you don't set the ability scores too high, or skill gets overshadowed by natural ability. (In other words, your Combat ANs will make less of an impact, proportionately.) Here's the clip I mentioned. It may be disturbing to some people, but although the victim was shot a few times, I think they were all to his extremities, and thankfully he survived. Thanks to that tree! Anyway, my point is that it's still really easy to shoot a dude when you're toe to toe - probably even easier than if he's far away. Remember: you can use a second action to shift stones to defense, like Speed or Agility or Acrobatics or something that better represents dodging and weaving. Or, you can try to disarm him. *shrug* You don't gain a +1 when fighting someone who doesn't have the style you're using. Did I write that somewhere? Specializations are only to counter situational penalties, just like normal MURPG. This is not actually a change to the rules in any way. The only difference is that they cost CLs instead of being free. To really take advantage of them, buy the Adaptation option - but otherwise, you're probably fine just buying one. And yes, in real life, some styles are more versatile and/or complete. Boxing is deliberately limited in scope because it is a sport with a lot of rules. In many ways, boxing is designed to minimize damage, whereas other disciplines aren't so gentle. But this is still fiction we're talking about, and the system simply isn't so complex as to allow for differences between styles. Often we'll only ever be dealing with 6 or 7 or 8 stones of attack.. there is very little wiggle room for making tiny adjustments for, say, the difference in basic ability of a boxer vs. a muay thai kickboxer. In the end, it just comes down to style. This next part is about disarm: Someone who does it for a living should have the disarm option. ^__^ I have taken a few self defense classes, and at least in my limited experience I realized that disarming a person of a weapon that they are actively using to try to kill you takes specific training. Many martial arts involve this sort of training.. but that means those people should buy the damn option. lol Part of it is just a game mechanic, too. If anyone and their dog can disarm you, why would you ever choose Melee? I want disarms to be a "sometimes" thing, or else too many fights invariably devolve into Unarmed vs Unarmed matches, and that's boring. Lastly, I wanted to keep as many things optional as possible, so as to be able to differentiate one fighter from another. If everyone has the same basic options built-in, the game gets boring. I will try to write a default rule for disarming, but it should be difficult and only really worth it in rare circumstances.
|
|
|
Post by takewithfood on Jun 8, 2010 12:38:58 GMT -5
Regarding disarm, actually, I guess I could just make the default ability that everyone gets something like this: Disarm: Instead of making a regular attack, you can attempt to disarm an opponent by pitting your stones of Strength, Speed or Agility (your choice) against your opponent's defense. When calculating your opponent's defense, swap their toughness and armor values (if any) for their strength, agility, or Combat AN (whichever is highest). If any "damage" is done, they are disarmed instead of taking damage. That's essentially the same rule as the option I offered, only you're using your Ability instead of the Action. Thus its possible, but difficult. And as a +1 CL option you can use the given combat Action instead of your Ability. So, for example, Bob and Julio are swordfighting, and they each want to disarm the other guy. Bob does not have the Disarm option, so he puts stones into Agility, his best Ability score, and compares it to Julio's defense as per the rules. Julio, however, DOES have the Disarm option. He uses stones of Melee instead of just an ability, and so has a much higher chance of successfully disarming his opponent. How does that sound? More realistic, maybe? ~TWF
|
|
|
Post by Neros on Jun 10, 2010 6:58:00 GMT -5
That's absolutely possible, it just isn't what I'm trying to accomplish here. Like I said already, this was designed for a Buffy game, and in part just to see how much work it would be to basically redesign the game. For even lower-powered games (I was thinking of running a Street Fighter game..), all you have to do is adjust the charts a little. The Actions don't need to change much. Just be careful, though, that you don't set the ability scores too high, or skill gets overshadowed by natural ability. (In other words, your Combat ANs will make less of an impact, proportionately.) Okay, if its fits with you're game then it would be fine and I also agree that ind the end.. But Im still gona ask questions and throw suggestions at you XD Hmm.. A question you could ask about the Strength/weight chart is: "How likely is it that a character will have Strength X?" .. In marvel, a character having Strength 10 isn't unlikely (being able to wield dumbstertrucks, throw air planes, ect.. Depending on the Stone count ofcourse), so what will be the likely max for the characters/the majority of the villains? I mean, how often will the characters be lifting cements trucks? Can they even start out with Strength 10 as normal MURPG? Here's the clip I mentioned. It may be disturbing to some people, but although the victim was shot a few times, I think they were all to his extremities, and thankfully he survived. Thanks to that tree! Anyway, my point is that it's still really easy to shoot a dude when you're toe to toe - probably even easier than if he's far away. Remember: you can use a second action to shift stones to defense, like Speed or Agility or Acrobatics or something that better represents dodging and weaving. Or, you can try to disarm him. *shrug* Nice clip..... Great..... Uhm... Effects But its still a Action RPG (or atleast the theme of Buffy is), and balancewise, I think there should atleast be something for unarmed combat.. Range and Melee combat both gain bonuses from their equipment.. Ofcourse, they need a equipment to use the action, but there is rarely nothing to grab nearby.. Chairs, rocks, severed arm, dirty pants.. You don't gain a +1 when fighting someone who doesn't have the style you're using. Did I write that somewhere? Specializations are only to counter situational penalties, just like normal MURPG. This is not actually a change to the rules in any way. The only difference is that they cost CLs instead of being free. To really take advantage of them, buy the Adaptation option - but otherwise, you're probably fine just buying one. And yes, in real life, some styles are more versatile and/or complete. Boxing is deliberately limited in scope because it is a sport with a lot of rules. In many ways, boxing is designed to minimize damage, whereas other disciplines aren't so gentle. But this is still fiction we're talking about, and the system simply isn't so complex as to allow for differences between styles. Often we'll only ever be dealing with 6 or 7 or 8 stones of attack.. there is very little wiggle room for making tiny adjustments for, say, the difference in basic ability of a boxer vs. a muay thai kickboxer. In the end, it just comes down to style. You don't?? Thats how I understood specialities for combat (also for normal MURPG).. Actually, Im prett sure I saw it noted somewhere.. Not sure if I want to start looking for it.... But then again, people like being right Someone who does it for a living should have the disarm option. ^__^ I have taken a few self defense classes, and at least in my limited experience I realized that disarming a person of a weapon that they are actively using to try to kill you takes specific training. Many martial arts involve this sort of training.. but that means those people should buy the damn option. lol Part of it is just a game mechanic, too. If anyone and their dog can disarm you, why would you ever choose Melee? I want disarms to be a "sometimes" thing, or else too many fights invariably devolve into Unarmed vs Unarmed matches, and that's boring. I agree, that if you do it for a living you should have the option (or have some other way of focusing on it), but I still feel the same thing can be said about grappling.. Getting a prober hold on someone who is moving around seems almost as hard as hitting a hand snurfing left and right.. Lastly, I wanted to keep as many things optional as possible, so as to be able to differentiate one fighter from another. If everyone has the same basic options built-in, the game gets boring. Totally agree.. In the current Marvel, if you have seen one melee/range fighter, you have seen them all.. Which does make it abit boring, especially if the game have a heavy focus on more normal actions.. Disarm: Instead of making a regular attack, you can attempt to disarm an opponent by pitting your stones of Strength, Speed or Agility (your choice) against your opponent's defense. When calculating your opponent's defense, swap their toughness and armor values (if any) for their strength, agility, or Combat AN (whichever is highest). If any "damage" is done, they are disarmed instead of taking damage. Uuh, very nice idea.. Will the usual penalty be applied for using you're abilities instead of an Action?
|
|
|
Post by takewithfood on Jun 10, 2010 8:59:04 GMT -5
Hmm.. A question you could ask about the Strength/weight chart is: "How likely is it that a character will have Strength X?" .. In marvel, a character having Strength 10 isn't unlikely (being able to wield dumbstertrucks, throw air planes, ect.. Depending on the Stone count ofcourse), so what will be the likely max for the characters/the majority of the villains? I mean, how often will the characters be lifting cements trucks? Can they even start out with Strength 10 as normal MURPG? Player Characters in a Buffy game will almost never start out with Strength scores above 6. Slayers get Strength 6 right off the bat, but they can't improve beyond that. However, villains will likely have insane strengths. Some Buffy opponents are literal gods, and demons who walked the earth at the very moment time was conceived. I need at least a little room on the chart for stuff that is much stronger than the PCs. That's just how the game works. As I explained already, I don't want normal strength to be a 7 or something, because then natural ability starts to overshadow training (your Ability scores will be higher than your Action Numbers a lot of the time), which makes for a very unheroic game. Remember, I'm not going for realism, I'm going for low-power. There is only a very little overlap between those two concepts. I have tried to explain this idea to people many, many times, and eventually they all come around. But I'm getting tired of pointing it out. lol I need to get paid for this. ^__^ Here's what, say, 6 stones of Unarmed and 6 stones of Melee look like: Unarmed 6 (Agility Bonus 3) Melee 5 (Weapon bonus: Katana [+1, x2 damage]) So, let's compare. Unarmed guy has an AN of 6 and an conservative but athletic ability score bonus of 3. He can put a total of 9 stones into Unarmed. It is expensive, energy-wise, but he can pull off really painful attacks. The Melee guy has an AN of only 5, but he has a weapon. The most he can put in his box at once is 6 stones, though it only costs him 5 to do so. Also, if he hits, he deals x2 damage. Are they different? Yes. Using a weapon is a little easier. Is one better than the other? Not really. Unarmed's advantage is the big ability bonus, which allows you to pull off big attacks which have the highest probability of actually doing damage. Melee is efficient in terms of energy, but is weak against skilled opponents with high defenses. Is this realistic? Not really. Was that ever the point? Not really. Are they balanced? Yes, I think so. Somewhere in the book it describes specialties as being used to negate sit mods. It doesn't really explain how they're used in any great detail, so it's largely left up to us to decide. This is just what I decided, and it's what I want to use for this game. I'd argue that grabbing/tackling a person is a lot easier (you're going for a much bigger target). If you watch videos on YouTube of untrained morons fighting in their backyards, they invariably end up in clinches. I may need to revisit grappling, but no system has ever done it properly, so I don't have terribly high hopes to begin with. Honestly, I'm tempted to just chalk it up to flavour and call it a regular Unarmed attack. Please, let's not talk about this anymore. Your input is noted, though. ^__^ No. ~TWF
|
|