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Post by Presto on Jun 1, 2010 14:19:36 GMT -5
Ran across this article when reviewing the Big Hollywood site. Gave it a read, thought about it for a good while (Not wanting to cause any trouble in this site), but I think this brings up an interesting discussion, and the article makes good points. io9.com/5549613/the-last-thing-spider+man-should-be-is-another-white-guy What if Spider-Man, Peter Parker, was played by an african american or even hispanic actor? I mean, initially I was upset at the idea because Spider-Man is, always has been... white. I don't know if I'd really enjoy the movie if he wasn't, because it'd feel like such a changeup from the Spidey i've known and loved. HOWEVER... They also changed Nick Fury. But the bad-assery of Sam Jackson pulled it off well, to the point that I don't blink about it.. However, I never knew much about Nick Fury to begin with. So what is everyone elses opinions on this? If standard, original Spider-Man was played by a non-white actor?
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Post by WildKnight on Jun 1, 2010 14:33:43 GMT -5
I wouldn't see the movie. Call me racist, whatever, I don't care. Peter Parker ain't black.
Besides, why would we WANT to see him as a lame racial stereotype rather than a stereotypical white geek? If anyone can show me evidence that Hollywood has a clue how to write a young black man, maybe I'll change my mind.
I personally think this kind of crap falls under the category of "change for the sake of change" and is totally unnecessary. In the case of Fury, they weren't making him black to prove a point or have more "racial' characters running around... they made him black because the people who created Ultimate Nick Fury were fans of Sam Jackson.
Quite frankly, I've seen more than enough of this "lets make somebody a minority to prove how down we are!" nonsense already. You want minority heroes? Cool. Make. New. Ones.
Works for the X-Men.
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Post by Brainstem on Jun 1, 2010 14:54:02 GMT -5
Strictly as a movie-goer, I don't see an issue with this unless it happens with the sole purpose of being, as WK said, "change for the sake of change."
Look at Daredevil; it was an awful film, by all means, but I think Michael Clarke Duncan was a good cast for the role of Kingpin. Likewise, I'm sure Billy Dee Williams would have made a fabulous Two Face had he been able to go beyond Harvey Dent in the first film. It just comes down to whether or not the actor cast is a good fit for the role, regardless of race. Still, if you cast someone outside of their established race, you'll always have the nagging tick wondering if they did it just to be hip.
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Post by takewithfood on Jun 1, 2010 15:48:06 GMT -5
I sort of agree that Spider Man is white. It does change the context of the character a little to change his race, though not that much, I suppose. Still, I agree that this falls into the unfortunate "change for the sake of change" category.
Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should.
Basically I agree with WK and Stem - though I didn't like Michael Clarke Duncan as the Kingpin. I think his performance was fine (more entertaining than convincing, really) but I feel that changing the race of American mobster from white to black is too significant to ignore. It changes the character a lot, in my opinion, especially since we're left to assume just about his entire background. It's a very different context, socially. If I felt it was deliberate and calculated, I guess I could get behind it a little more, but I can't shake the feeling that they made such a big change for funsies.
~TWF
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Post by malice on Jun 1, 2010 16:32:34 GMT -5
Hmm... I agree with the other responses, and while I am in favor of "colorblind" decision-making, I'd like to point out times when casting a white dude has actually hurt things.
First off, I didn't see the DBZ movie, and I'm probably never going to. My reason for mentioning it is that I wanted to confirm that the dude who played Goku was in fact a pathetic-looking white dude. That was a bad move.
Of course, so was making that movie.
The upcoming Prince of Persia movie has Jake Gylenhaal as the Prince. The Prince could have very easily been a more Persian-looking actor and worked very well. Instead they casted Jake, who always appears to me as an uncomfortable latent homosexual white dweeb (Nothing wrong with homosexuals, although I find the ones who haven't figured it out yet irritating).
My first alarm was that bi-polarity that we tend toward on race issues. Why not make him Native American, Asian, or Arab? That wasn't mentioned. Race isn't all black and white you know.
So to return to the original question, would making Spider-Man black be a problem? Well, making those other dudes white is a problem, so yes, making Spidey black would be too. However, I think really talented filmmakers could swing it. That's the definition of a talented fiction-weaver, they make you believe it.
The material is there to do it as well, but pay attention when I say why. If you consider that Parker was raised in a low-income household by relatives other than his parents and those folks are full of good morals and wisdom, the color of their skin becomes interchangeable. However, its same interchangeability is the thing that denies its plausibility, because one stereotype begets another. Low-income doesn't equal black but it can and people believe it when it does. Nerdy college student doesn't equal white but it can and people believe it more than they believe that its black.
What you end up with is more work to make him black, and that's just doing it to do it. If you have the talent for it, go for it. Really though, if you're going to be spending your time making the audience believe Spider-Man is black (which is doable), I'm concerned what you're NOT spending your time doing. Why bother changing the things no one thinks about when the point of the story is elsewhere?
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Post by takewithfood on Jun 1, 2010 16:39:11 GMT -5
Well, what's extra painful about casting white actors in minority roles is that there are already so damn few minority roles to begin with. Example: Racebending. (I will be boycotting the hell out of that movie. It is several steps, a hop, and a plane ride over the line.) ~TWF
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Post by Presto on Jun 1, 2010 16:39:13 GMT -5
Well the article did suggest also the possibility of a hispanic Peter Parker. Never mentioned Asian, or Middle Eastern... But the idea was essentially suggesting just a 'non-white' peter. I agree with WK on a note he said, that as soon as he could see Hollywood do a good non-stereotypical minority character, he'd be more open to the idea of a black (or hispanic/asian, etc..) Peter Parker. But a note someone made in the comments of that article also brought up the point. It's not about the minority status, it's just who the character is. A black Peter Parker is as believable as a blonde peter parker, or a kid peter parker, or even a girl peter parker, or dog Spider-man. All of them are possible and could be run... But they all suffer from the same limitation that it's not what the character is from the comics. To quote an Iron Man saying, the key to Marvel film success? Con-Ti-Nu-I-Ty. Edit: Also. gonna watch the Avatar movie. May watch it three times. Get the DVD, who knows... It looks awesome. I think the casting looks good (except for uncle Iroh), and looks to be awesome and close to the story/setting type. I think people being worried about race in that setting is going a bit overboard... It was a cartoon, Aang looked as white as anyone could be. And I'd rather them go for good actors and whatnot, then be chained to the ideal of 'Lets try to get what other people think are the races of these fictional animated characters'.
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Post by WildKnight on Jun 1, 2010 17:53:07 GMT -5
I'm somewhere between Presto and TWF on Avatar. I'll be seeing it, but because I can't stand M. Night, I have very little hope that it'll be all that good.
HOWEVER... I would like to know why its offensive that Aang is white. The character on the TV show was as white as white gets (sans blue tats). Soka and Katara were clearly not (I think they were supposed to be inuit or something), but Aang was "Asian" only in that the flavor of the show was "Asian". And even there, the cultures were fairly diverse (as I said, Soka and Katara seemed much more Inuit than Asian to me...).
I guess, for me, it stands to reason; if I'm a fan of something, when I see a movie about it, I want it to resemble what I was a fan of in the first place. If that means Peter Parker has to be a white guy, then great.
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Post by takewithfood on Jun 1, 2010 18:32:18 GMT -5
The Air Nomads were clearly based on a mix of Shaolin an Tibetan culture, and while his skin is pale, that doesn't necessarily mean he's white. But it isn't Aang being cast as a white kid that bothers me that much (apart from the fact that the kid NEVER FRIGGIN' SMILES, he looks like Aang, at least). It's Sokka and Katara cast as white kids, it's the bad guys all being middle eastern or otherwise obviously "brown" for some strange reason, and the way the casting was carried out. The "heroic" characters had casting calls that asked for "caucasion or 'other'" ethnicities, with a preference towards white people - hence the way the ended up with white Aang, Sokka and Katara. Casting calls for villainous characters specifically asked for non-white actors only, of any ethnicity as long as they were brown-skinned. It isn't as though they found the right people for the job and it just turned out that the good guys are all white and the bad guys are brown. It was deliberate, and that's what makes it disturbing. Strangely, when casting extras for the rest of the Water Tribe, they asked only for brown-skinned people, which makes Sokka and Katara the only white kids in the entire water tribe (both poles included). The casting directors are also grossly ignorant of other cultures: Raise your hand if you see at least one thing wrong with that. -_-' Adding it all up, it's pretty damn annoying. EDIT: This movie is aimed at kids, which irks me. It's the kind of crap that leads to this: ~TWF
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Post by WildKnight on Jun 1, 2010 19:12:01 GMT -5
I'd be pretty shocked if any of that stuff about how the casting was done was actually true, but I'm quite cynical about that. Sounds like a bunch of nonsense to me.
Also, you do realize that its been proven that just as many white kids will pick the black doll, as black kids will pick the white doll, right? That whole study that proved otherwise has been debunked on a number of points.
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Post by takewithfood on Jun 1, 2010 19:18:34 GMT -5
I'd be pretty shocked if any of that stuff about how the casting was done was actually true, but I'm quite cynical about that. Sounds like a bunch of nonsense to me. Everything I said was off the Racebending website. It's possible that they're making some or all of it up, but I don't have any reason to believe that. Do you know something I don't here? That's interesting, I hadn't heard that. Can you point me to a link? ~TWF
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Post by WildKnight on Jun 1, 2010 19:23:11 GMT -5
Everything I said was off the Racebending website. It's possible that they're making some or all of it up, but I don't have any reason to believe that. Do you know something I don't here? ~TWF You mean, other than "race baiters are notorious for lying" and "its a really bad idea to assume an accusation (particularly of something like racism) is truth in absence of any evidence"? No, not really.
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Post by takewithfood on Jun 1, 2010 19:56:57 GMT -5
Have a look at www.racebending.com sometime, if you haven't. It seems to be on the up-and-up to me. The info I posted is taken from the Avatar casting calls, which are public record. They cite their references. So, be shocked, I guess. ~TWF
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Post by WildKnight on Jun 1, 2010 20:31:45 GMT -5
Where does this say that they were looking for caucasians for the heroic leads?
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Post by takewithfood on Jun 1, 2010 20:44:26 GMT -5
The site used to be easier to navigate in the early days.. now it's.. big. Anyway, the casting stuff is mostly on this page. I don't find it too damning that they asked for "caucasian or any other ethnicity", at least in a vaccuum. On its own it doesn't sound that bad. But considering that those are the only roles that they phrased that way, and that they ended up only casting white people makes it fairly clear that they only wanted white kids. Calls for the other roles were not phrased that way - especially for extras, they deliberately asked for non-caucasians. ~TWF
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