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Post by takewithfood on Jun 6, 2010 15:17:28 GMT -5
A lot of it has to do with perception. Even if two people are treated differently, they may not realize it; similarly, even if two people are not being treated differently, one or both of them might think they are. Half of racial identity is what others think of us and how they treat us; the other half is what we think of ourselves and how that informs our actions.
It's very individual, is what I'm saying.
~TWF
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Post by Black Sam on Jun 23, 2010 13:06:39 GMT -5
I've kept mostly quiet on this one, but I saw this today: www.comicbookmovie.com/fansites/LetsCutTheBS/news/?a=19354I particularly liked the editorial paragraph at the end: When Angelina Jolie was announced to play Cleopatra there was immediate backlash from the African American community. But when Glover is announced as a POSSIBLE candidate for Peter Parker everyone is suppose to love one another and be totally cool with it. What would the response be if the Black Panther role went to Bradley Cooper? It wouldn't be good. Keep the roles as they should be, if you shake up to many things the franchise gets to a place that becomes unrecognizable. Besides that, something's just shouldn't happen. I will take this time to quote the great Paul Mooney in one of The Chappelle Show episodes from a few years back: "That's like a movie called The Last N%^@r on Earth starring Tom Hanks, man come on."
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Post by takewithfood on Jun 23, 2010 13:15:25 GMT -5
There is a difference between asking "What if Cleopatra was white?" and then casting Angelina Jolie in the role of a deliberately white Cleopatra; it's another to basically put Angelina Jolie in blackface and hope nobody notices.
But yeah, there is still an important analogy there. Thanks for the article!
~TWF
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Post by Manticore on Jun 23, 2010 13:19:53 GMT -5
Cleopatra was white. She was the last Queen of the (Greek) Ptolemaic Dynasty.
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Post by WildKnight on Jun 23, 2010 13:21:55 GMT -5
I'm not saying that Angelina Jolie is the most beautiful woman on the planet, or anything... but have you ever seen the real images of Cleopatra? That broad was fugly with a capital fug. Instead of race, what we should be debating is whether its appearance-ist to cast ugly characters with beautiful actors ;D
(P.S. Cleopatra WAS, more or less, white. She was descended not from Africans, but from Ptolemy, one of Alexander's top men. Certainly she would have been quite tan, given where her family had lived for generations, but Cleopatra was, most decidedly, not of African heritage.)
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Post by takewithfood on Jun 23, 2010 13:26:09 GMT -5
Oh, I didn't know about Cleo's heritage. I've only ever seen images of her, and they've always seemed to play up on her dark complexion. I sorta assumed it was a "white Jesus" thing. ^__^ My bad!
EDIT: So she was in blackface IRL? OMG THAT IS SO MUCH WORSE (just kidding)
~TWF
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Post by WildKnight on Jun 23, 2010 13:42:06 GMT -5
They recently did a computer reconstruction of her facial features, and yeah... Cleopatra was not a pretty girl (they figure that some of the deformity was a result of a combination of traditional Greek inbreeding, and the fact that they ate and drank off of a lot of pewter materials, which induces long term lead poisoning). Anyway, I'm trying to find a good pic of the computer simulation I saw, but it was pretty similar to this... only three dimensional. Of course, there's no guarantee that they were correct. A quick internet search found this image, also claiming to be a "correct" reconstruction of Cleo's appearance, and seems to show her as considerably more attractive.
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Post by takewithfood on Jun 23, 2010 13:43:57 GMT -5
That's okay. I don't think Angelina Jolie is that jolie either.
~TWF
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Post by vjcsmoke on Jun 23, 2010 19:04:02 GMT -5
As far as the casting for Avatar goes, it looks pretty straightforward to me. They are looking for particular racial types to fit particular roles. That's pretty obvious. However, they have the right to do so, as they are running a private enterprise. We're talking about a movie here, the movie company has their prerogative to use who they feel fit to get the job done.
Is it racial profiling? Yes. Can people really do much about it? Not really, other than to refuse to go see the movie. It reminds me of when Hollywood did the casting for Kungfu. They went with David Carradine over Brue Lee. Although Carradine was a wonderful actor in his own right, nobody in their right mind would confuse him for being Asian, and nobody would say that he was a better martial artist than Brue Lee, the legend himself.
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Post by WildKnight on Jun 23, 2010 19:26:11 GMT -5
The whole "Kung Fu" situation is a lot more complex than just race, as much as Bruce Lee's wife perpetually tries to make it about that.
There are some very solid disputes to the claim that Lee came up with the idea for the series, but in order to do the show he was demanding he be paid as not just a star, but also as a creator and producer. The network wasn't interested in paying that much money for a show they weren't sure was going to pay off. On top of that, Lee had gotten a rep for being difficult to work with; he often refused to follow the fight choreographers instructions and so on.
I have enormous respect for Bruce Lee, but there are a lot of things that seem to go unsaid about him because he died young.
Of course, none of that addresses the fact that they didn't cast a Chinese person.
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Post by terrorscarecrow on Jun 24, 2010 7:44:38 GMT -5
Okay! Here I go.. I'm going to try to address 6 pages of arguments in one post! Ready? Set? Go!
1] Spider man can not be black, because he isn't black! He's a white nerd in Queens. If you go and change that, than why not just start with "Spider man X #1" or some such nonsense! Also Nick Fury as black works because Nick Fury is a tough-as-nails military man. I don't think white when I think Nick Fury.
2] I would still see the movie. I'm to much of a spider man nerd not to. You could make him a ninety-five year old grandma, and I'd still see the movie! (in fact that would be kinda' funny...)
3] I don't like the DD Kingpin. I like him as black, but he's simply not BIG enough. Kingpin weighs like 500+ pounds! And that is how I see the Kingpin, no matter what you do...
4] I never saw the cartoon so I'm not watching the movie Avatar. It's M. Night Shamalan for gods sake! He just doesn't make good movies...
5] I'm pretty sure setting some babies in front of dolls is nowhere near conclusive, all knowing, irrefutable evidence.
6] I'm pretty sure white people will always show up for any role, even if it says specifically NOT to. There will be someone who did not read that.
7] Waaaaaay back on page 2 TWF said that fans loved the show so they'd love the movie. The point is you're trying to draw the largest audience possible, only fans don't cut it...
8] I agree that Toby was not a good spider man. He's known for his mid-fight jokes. That's almost his superpower! So they need someone that does that...
9] Spider man IS camp... Thats just how it works... I go to see the movie, because I'm looking for an action movie with the funny stuff... Like the comics goddammit!
10] White is culturally unique. I have like no culture. I may be the whitest person you've ever seen, but I hail from a wide range of countries. If all white people were the same, this would not be true. I'd have specific holiday's to enjoy, etc. But I don't. I'm diverse...
11] I'm completely open to all races applying for spider man. Even Dog!
12] When I read spider man, I can tell he's white. You can't base something off what you think people would do.
13] I'm pretty sure Blind People would find a way to know how horrible DD's costumes were.
14] Done with page 3! 3 more pages to go...
15] Hey! What race would play Beta Ray Bill? Would it matter? Yes it would! Even if it's still CGI, if you can tell someones race by the words they say, you can probably tell what race he is by the voice.
16] How would you change the gender of Wonder WOMAN? I mean than you'd have a cross dresser and that would be creepy...
17] On the topic of White Black Panthers... There's a comic called Wha-Huh? And one of it's recent issues had a white black panther! It's like What If? but funny... You can find it on the official Marvel Comics site if you have a subscription. Otherwise you'll have to buy it... (PS: Black Panthers white because he's South African!)
18] A great example of a white black character (again from Wha-huh) is Black Widow. She's got Black in her name and is white...
19] No racial profiling about Black Uncle Ben's! Okay maybe a little...
20] Ahem... the movies ARE different form the comics, just like Ultimate Spider Man. So how can you be fine with a Black Ultimate Spider Man, but not a Black movie Spider Man?
21] Peter Parker is built around a surrounding of Isolation and Belonging. It wouldn't change at all if he were black.
22] Adopting Peter is a far bigger change than making one of his parents black. They'd both be big changes, but that would be far larger.
23] Black Nerds are very different from white nerds. It's just that Peter Parker was a nerd. It doesn't matter the skin color. If a black person can substitute for Spider Man (which someone did! I can't remember his name though) than a Black Person can be Spider Man!
24] Cleopatra is white. Even at best if she was Egyptian, they weren't all completely black. So that goes out the window...
25] At the time Cleopatra was considered beautiful (even if people were forced to believe it). So it wouldn't be Appearance-ist.
26] Okay... BRUCE LEE IS NOT THE GREATEST MARTIAL ARTIST EVER, AND IN FACT IS QUITE A WAYS FROM IT!!!!! He may be good but there are plenty of people who are far superior. So no more "Bruce Lee is god!" messages from anyone, weather or not you're actually on these boards. (Sorry it's kind of a peeve of mine since I like Martial Arts...)
That's my couple thousand cents! I hope that I provoke much more argument over meaningless trivial non-sense! And I'm watching you I'll hunt you down and kill you if you don't argue...PS: There was a lot of Italicization and nonsense in this rant, but I'm to lazy to put it in. You can probably figure it out...PPS I had to modify this post because bigger was misspelled...
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Post by takewithfood on Jun 24, 2010 7:50:17 GMT -5
Best typo ever.
~TWF
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Post by terrorscarecrow on Jun 24, 2010 9:19:31 GMT -5
Hey! I fixed that !!!
Oh well...
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Post by OurLadyWar on Jun 24, 2010 9:23:45 GMT -5
Would one say you... n**** changed it?
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Post by WildKnight on Jun 24, 2010 9:32:09 GMT -5
1) I explained exactly why I feel there's a difference between a Spider-Man movie, and an 'alternate reality' scenario like Ultimate Spider-Man.
2) You can say Bruce Lee was not the greatest martial artist ever, but the facts are the facts. The man traveled around the world challenging anyone to defeat him. Nobody could stay in the ring for two minutes with the man, much less defeat him. Does that prove he was the best ever? No. With any given form of competition, you can never prove who was the best ever. But Bruce Lee was the real deal, he was a genuine master martial artist and he changed the world forever. For you to insult and degrade his accomplishments shows massive ignorance on your behalf.
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