General Typewriter-Monkey Appreciation Thread

[WildKnight]

Jun 19, 2010 22:36:48 GMT -5 slimgoodbody said:

Heh, now are you saying Amethyst sucks cause you've checked it out, or because you like being a Mary-Mary-quite-contrary and messing with me?

I've actually never played this game, and my only exposure to it is the link you posted. I was just dissenting for the fun of it (hence the complete lack of detail in my response).

Though, I will say this; the name, Amethyst, puts me in mind of another RPG that I did play and hate, "Amber"... and that puts a bad taste in my mouth right away.

[Brainstem]

Jun 20, 2010 7:15:40 GMT -5 WildKnight said:

I hadn't heard, and it is sad, but I haven't bought any Saga SW products in forever anyway. My honest feeling is that they chose to focus on elements of the setting that for the most part, I actively dislike (basically; the "Jedi are super heroes and everybody else is just a dude" vision of Star Wars), and as much as I like the mechanics of Saga, I've never really had all that much fun running or playing it.

Agree. I remember when Saga first came out, the talk was that Jedi were finally on a more level field with all of the other classes, but then SO MANY books came out focusing on giving Jedi ridiculous powers and just totally broke the class.

[Jet]

Im not a Star Wars expert, but after seeing all six movies, two Clone Wars cartoons, playing several games (Jedi Knight series, Kotor, among others) and reading some articles, well, call me crazy, but Jedi seemed like they ARE gamebreaking class on their own! I hardly remember any time where a Jedi was an equal with someone who wasnt a Jedi (or Sith or whatever other branch), none whatsoever. Sure, non-Jedi werent slouches and had their uses and unique skills that Jedi didnt have, but when it comes down to overall rating, they are inferior by default and common rule.
Sure, from a tabletop RPG, its unfair that some players will be better then others, losing balance is bad for the party, but really- arent people SUPPOSED to replicate the setting for their own stories? Isnt that the point of playing, you know, STAR WARS? And seeing as one of their primary rules is "Jedi > Everyone Else", why are everyone expecting them to break it? Sure, having an option for more balanced game is a good idea (for example, have a supplement that changes some numbers to make Jedi more compatybile with other classes), but as a main part?

Or am I missing something? I admit, I dont know a squat about SAGA, maybe they went a little too far with the concept. Let me know.

[WildKnight]

What you're missing is that for some of us, Star Wars used to be a set of 3 movies. The majority of that crap you listed came later. In the OT, Jedi were NOT ungodly powerful, by any stretch of the imagination. Lucas has said on record dozens of times that a powerful Force User is no more lethal than a skilled gunman... yet the EU has turned Jedi into the be-all, end-all of the Star Wars Galaxy.

No offense, but I'm not surprised an anime fan doesn't get why this doesn't appeal. Anime is all about elite super powered people lording over a universe of mortal peons.

[takewithfood]

I'm very curious to see how they'll balance out classes in The Old Republic (The MMORPG). How is a grunt soldier "Trooper" going to match up on even remotely equal terms with a friggin' Sith?

EDIT: The trailer, if you're interested. I think it looks dumb:


The one thing I'm interested to see in The Old Republic is that they claim that they're doing away with the traditional roles of healer, tank, etc, and that instead each class can just switch roles on the fly.

Wakfu, the game I play, is a little similar in that you often don't need a tank or a healer or a whatever, as classes are relatively versatile and can usually find some other way to cope, but they haven't taken the idea far enough. I hope The Old Republic sets a new standard.

~TWF

[Jet]

Expanded Universe of Star Wars provided me with enough evidence that Jedi = Demi-Gods, and for all its worth, everything that has an official Star Wars stamp on it is canon, therefore should be considered into a game. If your problem with SAGA is "doesnt limit itself to Original Trilogy", then I cant argue with that. Im one of those few people that DOESNT hate Expanded Universe, maybe becouse its closer to what I like.

And why is my love for anime an argument here? I've been playing MURPG for quite some time now and aside from mixing some anime tropes here and there, I've been doing a good job of separating comic world and anime world. So please, dont treat me like an enclosed weaboo that wont understand anything else then his own hobbies. My question was strictly about Star Wars mythos.

[Brainstem]

The issue, though, is that the movies chose to focus on the most powerful Force Users of all time and the books went and focused on their families (which, in fantasy worlds, means just as powerful), but the non-Force Users weren't exactly racial paragons. Han Solo was an excellent pilot and smuggler, sure, but was he the best? Well, if he was, he wouldn't have lost that cargo that he was bringing to Jabba, would he?

Really, just look at the other Jedi in the films. The Battle of Geonosis saw countless Jedi slaughtered, only able to be rescued by a dues ex. Keep in mind that these Jedi had the complete advantage of surprise on their side and they still would have been beaten. Sure, Anakin, Obi-Wan, and Mace are great, but they're the far end of the bell curve.

The trickiest part, though, is that every character that becomes something of a fan favorite gets developed into being a god, so all of the Jedi we see are the best at something. There's no way to gauge what a normal, Joe Schmo Jedi is like because we aren't ever really given a chance to see one.

[Jet]

Okay, thats a good explanation. This is the sort of stuff thats present in many fictional stories, where heroes MUST be unique even among their kind, otherwise fans will be all like "why are we bothering with this loser, while that guy over there is better? We want more of that!". But then we get to another point- is a player character also supposed to be unique, or should they be among those grey masses we're not supposed to care about? The obvious answer should be "yes, they should be unique, becouse whats the point of being avarage when we're the main characters?", but then comes "if we're unique, who isnt?". And yes, I know what some of you want to say: "we can be unique while not being overpowered", and I agree. But fighting is important in Star Wars (notice the emphasis on WAR in the title?), and being just "avarage" Jedi fighting among enemies on your own level (no matter what class they use) just isnt epic enough for Star Wars. At least I'd be pissed if my Jedi was having troubles fighting a small group of regular stormtroopers- this isnt what I saw from movies and this isnt what I expected from roleplaying a Jedi. I think many fans think the same.

[Brainstem]

Right, and all of that is true, but the uniqueness of the non-Jedi characters is much less awesome than the Jedi characters. Each does fill something of a niche, but the Jedi can fill every niche and can do it better than most of the other roles. Generally, when I run Saga games, it's always "all Jedi or no Jedi" only because it becomes far too difficult to manage everybody. There need to be challenges that everyone can help with, but I'm pretty sure the Scoundrel's player won't be having as much fun as the Jedi's player when the Jedi is in the heat of battle and the Scoundrel rolls a single d20 to diffuse a bomb.

The biggest downer, though is that, as I said, it originally started out with all classes being on a fairly even playing field. The Jedi definitely had the biggest edge in combat and could do negotiations well enough, but the other classes were no slouches in comparison. As more and more books came out, you'd notice that a large deal focused on Jedi and their powers. While it can be argued that any class can have access to the Force powers, it's an impractical notion to commit to. When the classes were as restricted as in the Core Book, yes, any class could afford to throw a Feat into getting some Force Powers, and the Force Powers presented weren't so mind-blowingly powerful that a Jedi focusing on using those powers would outclass anybody else. The investment a non-Jedi has to make towards being a decent Force user is ridiculous at this point.

Plus, just take a look at the books that have been released so far. Excluding the Core Rulebook, Setting Books, andGalaxy Tiles, two full books were dedicated strictly to the Jedi, while other classes had to share real estate within single books. Additionally, while the setting books did a fair amount of work at sharing the wealth, the KotOR and Legacy books were, from what I remember, just Jedi expansions. A good deal of the development could have gone into scaling the classes evenly, but they focused, instead, on creating redundant powers and cool tricks that only Jedi could do.

[dorkknight23]

I've been reading Cthulhutech! It's actually kind of different and cool, and kind of a hodgepodge of clichés, but definitely fun if you like Lovecraft and Giant Mecha Anime and want to have a poorly disguised version of Asuka Langley Sohryu teamed up with the Guyver and Tetsuo from Akira wrestling with Deep Ones.

Also, this is relevant:

[WildKnight]

Cthulhutech, for me personally, is yet another example of an awesome idea with a hopelessly and needlessly complex game system.

[Dullahan]

Got Paranoia, reading it, liking it, doing a game of it.

[dorkknight23]

Aug 23, 2010 21:15:20 GMT -5 WildKnight said:

Cthulhutech, for me personally, is yet another example of an awesome idea with a hopelessly and needlessly complex game system.

I think its complex, for sure, but compared to Catalyst Games' other work (Shadowrun) it looks positively simplistic. And you just have to get over that hump of "how do the dice work"?

[WildKnight]

Flying an F-16 is simplistic next to Shadowrun... ;D

[dorkknight23]

*Casts Minor Thread Necromancy*

So I'm reading Monsters and Other Childish Things right now. I'm really getting a kick out of it.