|
Post by honestiago on Dec 6, 2010 11:23:36 GMT -5
It's an old saw, and some people disagree with it, but the problem I see with 4E is that it attempts to emulate MMOs. The flavor of the game is distinctly and purposely that way, because that's the audience the game is shooting for. Its almost complete reliance on minis and maps for maximum effectiveness makes it mostly a tactical game, with some RP'ing thrown in (the level of which probably depends on the flavor of the campaign). From the many, many reviews I've read of the game (and based on my own cursory examination of the rules), the game seems to be:
-well-supported (thanks, technology) -pretty easy to set up and run (esp for the GM) -pretty useless without maps/minis -interminably slow once combat begins
Of course, that last one applies to earlier editions, too. I play in a 3.5 game, and frankly, it's over-burdened with rules and powers and such. I think you could achieve the same results through description and abstraction, but that's a personal preference.
The good news is, when it comes to pen-paper RPG's, there's something for everyone. If you like minis, tactics, "cool powers" and so on, it's there for you. If you like games that reward playing "in character" you have FATE-based games (which, to me, are what currrent FtF RPG's should be about, as they offer something you can't really get online...yet...).
|
|
|
Post by raynorn on Dec 6, 2010 12:57:47 GMT -5
It's funny you could say that the reliance on minis is a return to roots, as D&D was an attempt to add ongoing story to minitures gaming. This is why combat is also drawn out, it is at its heart a combat game with RPG tacked on. Which is why I said I love D&D as a party game, but I don't consider it much of an RPG.
|
|
|
Post by shenron on Dec 6, 2010 13:00:12 GMT -5
I think even though a game is designed to be used with maps and things, you do not have too. I have yet to run a DnD game with minis and a grid. (Yes, even 4th ed.)
I use plenty of pictures and some props, but I think abstractions works a lot a better to keep people in character then just roll dice, move mini, roll dice again.
I actually think the best part about the system is the combat system. My biggest beef with 4th ed. is that it is almost impossible to make your own classes, paths, etc.
@ WK: Second Edition is far from perfect, but there a game lines that take a lot of things from 2nd edition and it works very well. I am not saying the should reprint exactly that, but it would need a massive overhaul.
Personally, If they do come out with a 5th edition, as I am sure they will eventually (is Hasbro does not decide to scrap the RP section of the company completely). They cannot stick to the d20 system as we know it or even the 4th Edition system. I would like to see something based a long the lines of Mutant and Masterminds 3rd edition, with point based character creation, and quicker combat. So you could have a fighter that is good with bows, or 2 handed weapons, or duel wielding, etc. It should turn into something where of 3 people in your group want to play a Rogue you would get something completely different depending on what type to rogue the character wants to play. Pathfinder attempted this and did a decent job in their Advanced Players guide.
|
|
|
Post by shenron on Dec 7, 2010 5:23:24 GMT -5
I just picked up the "essential" Monster's Vault and I am impressed. I never used maps and stuff because I refused to go out and by the minis, etc.
This box set comes with the Monster (Manual) Vault book, a 32 page adventure, and 10 sheets of cardboard pop out monster tokens. To get the tokens it was worth it.
I just have to say I am impressed with that specific product.
Now I might have to get a grid map and actually use a map and minis when I run my Dark Sun campaign I have floating around in my head.
|
|
|
Post by Brainstem on Dec 7, 2010 18:17:26 GMT -5
What if they made a D&D that wasn't class-based? Or was loosely class-based?
Abilities are purchased like Skills, where certain ones are cheaper for certain classes because they're "Class Abilities," but there's nothing stopping a Fighter from learning Sneak Attack. Essentially, you have unlimited cross-classing ability without as much mess because you don't have to deal with all the nonsense D&D seems to put around that (that's something I never understood, having started with SWRPG).
Basically, there would be certain builds that would work better together, giving you the standards of each type, but you could tinker around and mix and match to make whatever you want. Maybe classes could be based around Power Sources or Roles? As much as that all imitates MMORPGs, I really liked the addition of those elements to character class.
|
|
|
Post by WildKnight on Dec 7, 2010 18:19:57 GMT -5
The attempt to emulate MMOs by lumping classes into roles is precisely why 4th Edition is a failure. It's no fun.
I really don't want to see D&D go classless. As much as I generally prefer "open creation" systems, I think D&D is at its best when it sticks to classic fantasy themes.
|
|
|
Post by shenron on Dec 8, 2010 3:53:32 GMT -5
I just realized why 2nd Edition has a place in my heart (I was just flipping through the books I have) and it is because it is gritty. You fight something to powerful and you die, you get poisoned and you do, cursed will kill you, etc. It had a very dark feel to it and it was before DnD became politically correct. Demons were still Demons, there was half nudity in some of the art work, and all of that jazz. Of course it still had high magic which off set the gritty feel, but ya.
I know 4th Ed. has flaws but also has merits and I think it can be fun for anyone if they make it fun. Just like other way more convoluted systems can be fun if you have the right group/mindset and truly understand the rules.
@ WK: So, why not love for Dark Sun? I think Dark Sun, Ravenloft, and Eberron were the best settings. The first two being tying for first for different reasons.
To be honest, my favorite type of fantasy is Gothic Fantasy, were you have to slay 16 virgins to cast a fireball, etc. Lord of the Rings is a good example, as well the Midnight setting for 3.5 from Fantasy Flight and so is Dark Sun (to a point). Cubicle 7 is working on a new Lord of the Rings game and I am excited for it.
|
|
|
Post by WildKnight on Dec 8, 2010 6:53:16 GMT -5
Dark Sun was terrible delivery built on top of a terrible concept. "Hey, what happens if we take away everything that makes this game D&D, and then set it in an environment that is needlessly lethal???"
|
|
|
Post by shenron on Dec 9, 2010 5:06:23 GMT -5
I have to disagree with you there WK. I do not think they took everything away that made it DnD. They took away the over the top magic and made magic items rare. Yes, it can be lethal at times, but the way it is designed is that players need to think of a better way to defeat foes then just walk in swinging at everything in sight. I think in Dark Sun 1e it says in the DMG that starting level for this setting is 3. I mean, I have always tweaked the setting a little and ran it more Dune-esq. I do understand how it is not for the faint of heart.
Oh, what do you think about Ravenloft?
|
|
|
Post by WildKnight on Dec 9, 2010 7:13:48 GMT -5
It has nothing to do with being faint of heart and everything do with the fact that Dark Sun isn't Dungeons & Dragons. It's a bad attempt at a post apocalyptic setting. It didn't do away with over-the-top magic, as spells are every inch as powerful as they ever were. It just took away the ability of non-casting classes to compete with spell-casters by robbing them of the resource that leveled the playing field (magic items). Don't even get me started on the absolutely awful mechanics, like having half-giants change their alignment every day. That is epic level stupidity right there. Dark Sun is the second worst thing to ever come out of TSR (second only to the unrelenting awfulness that was Spelljammer).
I like Ravenloft. I think it was better when it was a place you "visited" than when they tried to transform it into a whole setting onto itself, but even that worked okay with a GM who really understands how to invoke fear and horror rather than just calling for a die roll.
|
|
|
Post by Dominus on Dec 9, 2010 22:51:35 GMT -5
I don't know how you can run 4th edition without a grid and miniatures. And in my experience as soon as that grid comes out, role playing goes down the drain, and it becomes all about tactics and dice rolling. If you like this kind of thing I would suggest playing a MMO. It's a waste of time for any real roleplayer.
|
|
|
Post by WildKnight on Dec 9, 2010 23:08:17 GMT -5
I don't know how you can run 4th edition without a grid and miniatures. And in my experience as soon as that grid comes out, role playing goes down the drain, and it becomes all about tactics and dice rolling. If you like this kind of thing I would suggest playing a MMO. It's a waste of time for any real roleplayer. You're right to a point. The grid & mini's do change the mindset of the group, and it's very difficult to keep people in the role-playing groove, but my Friday night group is very good at doing just that, so it's not a complete waste of time. You just have to be playing with the right people. I do agree 100% that 4th Edition simply does not work at all without the grid, but 4th Edition wasn't designed for role-players, it was designed to be marketed to MMO players and 6th graders.
|
|
|
Post by shenron on Dec 10, 2010 4:51:04 GMT -5
I don't know how you can run 4th edition without a grid and miniatures. And in my experience as soon as that grid comes out, role playing goes down the drain, and it becomes all about tactics and dice rolling. If you like this kind of thing I would suggest playing a MMO. It's a waste of time for any real roleplayer. You're right to a point. The grid & mini's do change the mindset of the group, and it's very difficult to keep people in the role-playing groove, but my Friday night group is very good at doing just that, so it's not a complete waste of time. You just have to be playing with the right people. I do agree 100% that 4th Edition simply does not work at all without the grid, but 4th Edition wasn't designed for role-players, it was designed to be marketed to MMO players and 6th graders. I am sorry but I have to disagree with you both. I ran 4th Edition without a grid and minis and it worked out just fine. Obviously you have to throw the movement rules etc. out the window. And just abstract distances and when things say that you push your opponent back 3 squares or what not simple translate into ; "The sorcerer's bolt of lighting slams into your chest and knocks you off of your feet, sending you sailing through the air in the opposite direction. You just miss the edge of building and skid to a halt some distance a (or let's say 10 feet). You clothes and hair are cinched and there is the stink of ozone around you."
|
|
|
Post by WildKnight on Dec 10, 2010 8:23:34 GMT -5
I get what you're saying, but that's not really 4th Edition. If you're abstracting things, there's no real difference between 3 squares and 5 squares and the only real benefit to leveling in 4th Edition is that the effects you target your enemies with get stronger.
4th Edition is designed to be a thoroughly tactical game. You can claim you're running it without the grid, but you really have no idea what 4th Edition is, in that case.
|
|
|
Post by shenron on Dec 10, 2010 15:10:10 GMT -5
I completely understand that it is designed to be played with maps and mini and tactics. I know that is where the combat system really shines.
But alas, the Golden Rule of RPGing and the fact that it can work almost as smoothly (thanks to the simplicity of the system) in abstract. Sure, you won't be able to know exactly how far you knocked your opponent back but you will know if he is knocked back enough to hit a wall and take damage or to fly off a cliff or even far enough away where he or you has to take a full move action to get to him.
I understand that in abstracting you lose a lot of the fine lines of combat and some of the more tactical abilities but the feel is still the fame and I think it actually increases the fun factor of it.
I have brought out a map and some minis for large or evry important battles.
|
|