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Post by ironfox on Jan 11, 2011 22:20:22 GMT -5
I've had a problem with this one for a while. I don't know if there's already a fix for it somewhere on the boards but it seems pretty much obviously broken to me.
I'm not even going to explain the brokenness of this whole mechanic unless somebody asks but here's my idea for a solution.
Make Armor Penetration a Modifier at MN +0 cost. Remove Nullifies Armor Penetration from the Toughness options. AP counts against overcoming Toughness. If AP MN is lower than the Toughness of the defender, ignore AP. The end.
So Wolverine overcomes pretty much everyone's Toughness with his MN 10 AP, but he paid 15 White Stones for it.
Thoughts? Want for clarification? Post it!!
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Post by WildKnight on Jan 12, 2011 7:34:38 GMT -5
It's too cheap. If you look at the book, Toughness in excess of 3 or 4 is extremely rare. 1 white stone to overcome the majority of the "tough" characters in Marvel's defenses entirely is just too good.
Personally, I don't see the need for an AP/no AP mechanic at all.
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Post by ironfox on Jan 12, 2011 8:27:35 GMT -5
It's too cheap. If you look at the book, Toughness in excess of 3 or 4 is extremely rare. 1 white stone to overcome the majority of the "tough" characters in Marvel's defenses entirely is just too good. Personally, I don't see the need for an AP/no AP mechanic at all. I see your point. However, I can already cheaply overcome the toughness of any character without the No AP option with CC 1 +AP = 2w, then bolster my CC with an Action that combines with it. Also, I think that this offers more variance between AP characters. An AP bullet is not going to penetrate the same kind of toughness that adamantium claws will. Everyone with the exception of Ultron in the MURP book who has Nullifies AP would not actually be able to nullify Wolvie's AP. Wolvie cuts Hulk as easy as anything else. Hulks Dur and Healing Factor just make it not matter as much.
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Post by ironfox on Jan 12, 2011 8:29:58 GMT -5
BUT! I do think that the lower levels of this Modifier are too cheap...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2011 12:54:18 GMT -5
I have often wondered about this rule myself. In regards to Asgardians. They do not have Nullifies AP under their toughness, but I'm told bullets bounce off Asgardians in comics. For that matter does anyone know of a time Thor, Loki, or Amora were injuried by Wolverine cutting them?
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Post by malice on Jan 12, 2011 16:44:16 GMT -5
I have often wondered about this rule myself. In regards to Asgardians. They do not have Nullifies AP under their toughness, but I'm told bullets bounce off Asgardians in comics. For that matter does anyone know of a time Thor, Loki, or Amora were injuried by Wolverine cutting them? Bullets bounce off or miss damn near everyone in comics unless it's a named hero/villain firing them or a nobody receiving them. When it comes to bullets, there is a very large difference between MURPG and Marvel Comics. I'm not disagreeing with your sentiment, just your analysis.
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Post by WildKnight on Jan 12, 2011 17:09:38 GMT -5
What Malice said.
Additionally, one of the core problems with MURPG is that, if you look at the CADs in the books, they clearly never intended the majority of characters to have 4 to 6 stones of free defense every panel. Yet because Toughness & RD are so cheap, thats what you get even in the lowest stone count games (even at 20 stones, its exceedingly easy to get Toughness & RD each at 2). Amongst other things this means that original characters will have defenses far in excess of what was obviously intended by the creators of the system. This is largely a failure of the designers, but it's one that cuts straight to the core of the way the system plays out in practical terms.
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Post by malice on Jan 12, 2011 17:53:10 GMT -5
Additionally, one of the core problems with MURPG is that, if you look at the CADs in the books, they clearly never intended the majority of characters to have 4 to 6 stones of free defense every panel. 5-7 +1 armor is free Poor Cyclops can barely K.O. someone who is sitting at the bar having a drink, and it takes him all his energy to do it.
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Post by WildKnight on Jan 12, 2011 18:45:46 GMT -5
Additionally, one of the core problems with MURPG is that, if you look at the CADs in the books, they clearly never intended the majority of characters to have 4 to 6 stones of free defense every panel. 5-7 +1 armor is free Poor Cyclops can barely K.O. someone who is sitting at the bar having a drink, and it takes him all his energy to do it. Fair enough. ;D
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Post by ironfox on Jan 12, 2011 20:23:34 GMT -5
Yuppers. That's why house rules are a must. At it's core, I love the MURP system. It's when you start doing... anything that you begin to see that it still needs some time in the oven.
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Post by malice on Jan 12, 2011 20:51:50 GMT -5
I feel like its simplicity lends itself easily to house ruling though. I remember accidentally overcoming a lot of the challenges my players faced me with when I GMed (Admittedly it's been awhile).
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Post by WildKnight on Jan 12, 2011 20:56:14 GMT -5
Depends a lot on your players. With players who don't whine and complain when things don't go their way, MURPG can be house ruled and patched and be a pretty usable system (though I still think its all but worthless for table top gaming... there are at least half a dozen systems I'd rather use for supers gaming in a table top format).
If you've got players who insist on their right to abuse the system, then MURPG falls apart completely.
<edit> I still think that the best way to deal with AP is to not deal with AP. It seems obvious to me that if Wolverines claws can cut The Hulk, they can shred lesser beings with ease. Instead of having AP and No AP, its simpler to have the really good weapons (like Logan's claws) offer a bonus roughly equivalent to the bonus provided by the really good defenses (like Hulk skin).
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Post by ironfox on Jan 12, 2011 21:15:24 GMT -5
One of the things I love about the system is that it offers so much versatility without having to be 500+ pages long *cough* HERO System *cough*
But at the same time it's way to easy to abuse. I challenged a friend of mine to a duel claiming that I could best any 40 stone CAD he built with only a 20 stone CAD. To try to keep things fair we agreed to no challenges and no Advantages or Disadvantages.
We haven't dueled yet but (hope he doesn't read this) I was able to build this with 19w and 2r stones.
INT 1 STR 1 AGI 1 SPD 6 DUR 4
SPD for initiative
ROBOT: Abilities cost 5w 2r
Manipulate Body Density 1
Unstoppable 2 (SPD Bonus)
Actions cost 7w
PA Self-Repair Accelerated
Modifiers cost 6
So I'll likely act first hitting him with an 8 stone x2 DMG attack and if that doesn't stop him, use my 1 little tiny stone from Manipulate Body Density to make myself completely untouchable, move a safe distance, rinse and repeat.
This challenge is not so much to say "I'm so awesome at making CADs!" as it is to say "Stop bragging that you can make a powerful CAD, anyone can and with half the amount of stones."
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Post by WildKnight on Jan 12, 2011 21:39:36 GMT -5
Your CAD is good... but if you really want an engine of death, hit up Dionon. That dude can crunch a CAD using the MURPG system like nobodies business.
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Post by malice on Jan 12, 2011 22:36:38 GMT -5
One of the things I love about the system is that it offers so much versatility without having to be 500+ pages long *cough* HERO System *cough* But at the same time it's way to easy to abuse. I challenged a friend of mine to a duel claiming that I could best any 40 stone CAD he built with only a 20 stone CAD. To try to keep things fair we agreed to no challenges and no Advantages or Disadvantages. We haven't dueled yet but (hope he doesn't read this) I was able to build this with 19w and 2r stones. INT 1 STR 1 AGI 1 SPD 6 DUR 4 SPD for initiative ROBOT: Abilities cost 5w 2r Manipulate Body Density 1 Unstoppable 2 (SPD Bonus) Actions cost 7w PA Self-Repair Accelerated Modifiers cost 6 So I'll likely act first hitting him with an 8 stone x2 DMG attack and if that doesn't stop him, use my 1 little tiny stone from Manipulate Body Density to make myself completely untouchable, move a safe distance, rinse and repeat. This challenge is not so much to say "I'm so awesome at making CADs!" as it is to say "Stop bragging that you can make a powerful CAD, anyone can and with half the amount of stones." Since it's a duel you can put "one target only" on any offensive action, saving yourself a lot of stones. My first duel build would've been a speedster too probably. Only I would've made his attacks vs. speed (Most often dumped). Also, if your friend DOES see this you lose pretty much automatically. Once NICE thing about the MURPG system is there is an ever-present paper-rock-scissors vibe whereupon one build has the key to defeating another. So if you see someone's character, you can build something to kill it very easily. This has given me an idea. not sure if it's been done on here before, but I'm thinking a "K.O. the build above you... with fewer stones" thread could be fun. Reboot the stone count every now and then and you might see a few neat ideas. I'll have to think more on it tomorrow.
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