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Post by WildKnight on May 25, 2007 15:09:43 GMT -5
On top of which... having body parts replaced WEAKENS your skeleton. It doesnt make you stronger. Ask my Father. His knee replacement surgery did not make him into the bionic man. In fact he now walks with a cane.
Batman having an inhuman Durability score is, IMO, a very bad way to represent him. The thing that makes Batman great is that he is just human.
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Post by Super Ryan on May 25, 2007 15:14:10 GMT -5
Not too mentu=ion he was not exactly fightin gfor that entire week nor was he running at his top speed for that one week eather. Durability is a measure of how long you can go at your peek exertion. One of the best things about batman is he is just human sure a human in peak physical condition but humam none the less.
He should not have any abilities over a three. And before everyone screams daredevil at me let me remind you that daredevels sence of balance is superhuman becouse of his radar sence. His inner ear wich effect everyones sence of vertigo and such is superhuman. What makes batman so damn cool is that it is not necesarily what you see on his sheet that makes him bad but how he is played.
In my opinion you need to have some crazy tactics and skill to pull of a batman.
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Post by Super Ryan on May 25, 2007 15:15:33 GMT -5
;D Sweet i am starting to fall for wildnight ! LOL
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Post by WildKnight on May 25, 2007 18:01:29 GMT -5
I agree about Daredevil having supernatural reflexes... BUT not all abilities top out at 3 for human beings. Batman's intelligence would be off the charts... he should literally rival the very best thinkers in Marvel (he's easily as smart as Tony Stark). Just remember that in Batman's universe, technology like the Iron Man suit is always alien, so while Batman may not have all of the cool stuff that Marvel inventors have, its much more impressive for him to develop what he does. Batman's intelligence could easily be 7... maybe higher.
That said, I do think he should always be within human bounds... but augmented with ALOT of modifiers. His equipment lists would be insanely expensive (and should be). Batman should also have insanely high ANs in alot of actions... Ninja, Detective, Vehicle Ops to name a few (I envision Detective as kind of like Private Investigation but with more "CSI" type skills as well). I have an issue from No Man's Land where Batman builds a computer out of television parts (not even possible, so it must make him an electronics GENIUS).
In the old DC Universe RPG (great game, highly recommend it to anyone who likes super hero RPGs, DC or not... not as good as MURPG though), Batmans abilities were all within human restraints... but he had an entire chapter of a book full of astounding equipment.
Going further back, in DC Heroes, Batman had the "Omni-Gadget" option which was awesome. Basically you had a certain number of widgets that you didnt have to decide what they did till you needed them. "Oh, good thing I remembered to bring that Green Kryptonite since Superman's turned evil again" LOL. Good stuff.
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Post by flash on May 25, 2007 20:42:24 GMT -5
I would have to agree with both Wild and Ryan, about the stats not being above of 3 with the exception of intel.
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Post by Captain-Punisher on Jun 1, 2007 7:55:21 GMT -5
On top of which... having body parts replaced WEAKENS your skeleton. It doesnt make you stronger. Ask my Father. His knee replacement surgery did not make him into the bionic man. In fact he now walks with a cane. Batman having an inhuman Durability score is, IMO, a very bad way to represent him. The thing that makes Batman great is that he is just human. From my experience with comics, replacing a body part is, nearly, always advantageous. Any disadvantages are never with the limbs (heart, spleen, whatever) interaction with the body. They are usually plot twists involving the donor. Everyone seems to want to argue that someone wrote Batman up as being too powerful. My opinion (and I wouldn't be writing it if it weren't my opinion) is write your own or take a look at Captain American (pre-corpse Cap). He took a shot and a bath and become the "peak human" yet his strength, agility and durability are all 4's.
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Post by WildKnight on Jun 1, 2007 9:02:52 GMT -5
In normal comics, yeah. Not in Batman. Batman has, over the last 2 decades, been very good about keeping the character true to his "just a human" roots. Batman has no super cybernetic limbs... if he had bones replaced, it would be with composite materials, probably far superior to what we've got in real life, but not in ways that would make him super human.
Batman has actually dealt with the pain (physical and emotional) he's suffered, and the fact that he's aging... I think it sucks to diminish that just because you're too big a fanboy to admit that Batman might not have as much Durability as, say, Spider-Man.
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Post by Dionon on Jun 1, 2007 11:00:00 GMT -5
From my experience with comics, replacing a body part is, nearly, always advantageous. Any disadvantages are never with the limbs (heart, spleen, whatever) interaction with the body. They are usually plot twists involving the donor. Everyone seems to want to argue that someone wrote Batman up as being too powerful. My opinion (and I wouldn't be writing it if it weren't my opinion) is write your own or take a look at Captain American (pre-corpse Cap). He took a shot and a bath and become the "peak human" yet his strength, agility and durability are all 4's. Well, despite what I said before, I take a look back and realize that Captain America is a little more than Human. Batman is at his core a human being with no genetic alterations. But that being said, he has done some truly AMAZING feats of endurance in the past. But looking back, that can be attributed to time lapses in the comic panels, or writer's takes on things... I can see now why he should be a 3 Durability, and while it's a little suspect on what he's done in the comic books, I agree. Also, now looking back on it... I would up his Intelligence to a 9 and make him Intelligence Based. He's supposed to be the smartest man in the DC universe (thus putting him on par with Reed Richards). I would also give him Inventing to go along with that Technology and up that number to a 7 or 8. He's built some of the most amazing things in the DC universe, including the Big Brother satellite. Also I would up his Vehicle Ops to an 8 (No on in DC uses a vehicle better than the Bat), and Up his General Knowledge to an 8 (You don't have to add any specialties to it.... there's no need). I really didn't take a good look a the character before now, I just got swept into the 3 durability debate...
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Post by WildKnight on Jun 1, 2007 15:53:21 GMT -5
I dunno if I'd say Batman qualifies for a 9 Intelligence. Hes very intelligent, no doubt... but even he himself has said that hes far from the smartest. Thats why he consults with scientists and engineers quite frequently.
Batman should have the highest possible AN for General Knowledge. His broad range of "stuff he knows" is probably greater than any other character, but I just dont know if I'd say that makes him the greatest overall raw intellect. There are certainly specialists who know more of their field than he ever will.
I guess ultimately that would be debatable because MURPG intentionally built in overlap between what Abilities represent, and what Actions represent (and between what various Actions represent as well). I could see Batman being a 9, taking into a account the seemingly lower overall technology level of Batmans world (thats Batman as he appears in his solo comics.. if you're taking a JLA Batman then he's nowhere near that smart... he consistently runs into technology he has no idea about).
Also, Batman should probably have the Psycho-Centric Power Template modifier... he seems able to work at an accelerated rate on mental problems, and he should almost definately have the Concentration action.
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Post by Super Ryan on Jun 1, 2007 20:12:20 GMT -5
I agree on the inteligence thing. I would go up to 6 or seven. The thing is someone can be as smart as iron man and still be outthought by batman just couse he so damn tactically sound. For him i would suggest major equipment, high action numbers and mods up the ace.
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Post by WildKnight on Jun 2, 2007 9:13:49 GMT -5
Yep. Mods. Batman is all about the gear, in any iteration of the character.
You know this is one area where MURPG is really limited. The 9 actions rule is actually necessary, IMO, to the balance of the game... BUT Batman could theoretically have sooooooo many more actions. Acrobatics Black Ops/Spying (I know you're thinking, why not just Ninja but Ninja doesn't cover technological snooping, which Batman is an expert at) Business Skills Concentration General Knowledge Healing (medical) Hunting/Tracking Inventing Leadership Ninja Social Skills Technology Thieving (not really necessary with the Black Ops/Technology combo hes already got) Vehicle Ops and Web Slinging...
And thats just off the top of my head ;D
Whats worse is... most of those should be at 9. Batman "invented" a cure for a plague in a matter of days not too long ago.
Yeah... Batman is hardcore
Which leads me to... why the hell dont we have any DC games on this board?
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Post by Super Ryan on Jun 4, 2007 9:24:30 GMT -5
I have thought of doin an ultimate teen titans type game but when it comes to DC people get mad couse the power level is so difrent i mean superman in Dc has like an 18 strength and some fans dont understand how unbalanceing that is for a game.
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Post by WildKnight on Jun 4, 2007 9:32:59 GMT -5
I dont know that I'd say Superman *has* to be an 18 strength. Taken on the balance, Superman hasn't typically been that strong. Thats a common image of the man because people always remember the most over-the-top stuff a character ever does... but I remember Cosmic Spider-Man catching a toppling building and putting it back in place w/o breaking a sweat.
Supermans power level has been revised and changed over and over throughout the years. I think its a fair happy medium to put him in the same strength range as Thor.
Also, theres no way Supe's strength should be 18, by any standards... DC's editors have said themselves that Supes is not as strong as the Hulk. And Hulk tops out at 18.
I think you'd find that if you watced the Justice League cartoon, they went for a "middle of the line" Superman... and he was vulnerable to attack, frequently harmed (though rarely out of the action for long), and only strong enough to flip large cars... not strong enough to move planets.
I think a Justice League game could work, so long as the players were mature enough to deal with the fact that the Justice League is *not* an equal partnership. Certain characters (Superman, Wonder Woman) clearly have more "stones" to work with than others.
But if I were going to run a DC game, it would just be called Gotham, and would be based on the Bat-family.
Oh, and if you ever do decide to run that Ultimate Teen Titans, gimme a holler first.. Dick Grayson is one of my all-time favorite characters in any medium, and I'll play him with love in my heart... even if I have to wear the Robin suit ;D
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Post by Super Ryan on Jun 4, 2007 12:08:46 GMT -5
Thats soo funny i totally ran a home game of No Mans Land. I am a big fan of the Bat Family. I have the entire Nightwing collection at home and on my computer, As well as Azriel. Personnally iam a big fan of Bat girl as well. I like the conflict and how she is so strong willed and yet nieve at the same time. I had gotten to play as a character once in a gothem setting. It was fun but the GM was a pain. He did not understand the system that well. If any one starts a game like that color me interested.
As for supes powers i agree. I have all the Marvel Vrs DC comics and even the companys put there characters on equal footing when it came down to a fight. I mean sure the Flash could dust Quiksilver, and things like that but basically they evened em out a bit.
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Post by Mister Sinister on May 27, 2008 21:49:19 GMT -5
I dont know that I'd say Superman *has* to be an 18 strength. Taken on the balance, Superman hasn't typically been that strong. Thats a common image of the man because people always remember the most over-the-top stuff a character ever does... but I remember Cosmic Spider-Man catching a toppling building and putting it back in place w/o breaking a sweat. Supermans power level has been revised and changed over and over throughout the years. I think its a fair happy medium to put him in the same strength range as Thor. Also, theres no way Supe's strength should be 18, by any standards... DC's editors have said themselves that Supes is not as strong as the Hulk. And Hulk tops out at 18. I think you'd find that if you watced the Justice League cartoon, they went for a "middle of the line" Superman... and he was vulnerable to attack, frequently harmed (though rarely out of the action for long), and only strong enough to flip large cars... not strong enough to move planets. I don't agree. I own the Marvel vs. DC series, where the Hulk puts a dent in Supes, but gets beat down. Superman sweats, but Metallo has been shown doing more to Supes than ole- Brucie. This is referred to in sooo many Superman writeups - and I have looked all over creation trying to find anything that alludes to Superman not being as strong as the Hulk. A Year One Superman? Maybe. Modern Superman? Pff. Hulk mows his lawn for fear of a pimp-slap, in terms of Strength. It's hard to run a DC game - it defeats the integrity of the characters. When you have as many people who are as strong as that, the difference of a 21 and a 23 Strength (seeing as it multiplies the benchmark) makes a big difference. Lobo, Martian Manhunter, Superman, Orion, and Major Force should NOT have the same Strength level - that would be a joke! And, for something with a Strength of 10 or so (Superman's curl, for example), it needs to be defined as being strong, but not nearly as strong. ;D DC's characters are so high in the grandeur factor - spandex, jaws, and rippling muscles sold comics for them while true grit and ambiguous ability levels sold comics for Marvel. It's a different platform, and clearly. People have just gotta cope with it!
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