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Post by WildKnight on Feb 15, 2012 21:40:09 GMT -5
I would argue that Jedi have always "raised armies and stabbed people" (or whatever you said). The mere fact that they have an iconic weapon and are referenced very early on as having fought in the Clone Wars suggests that they were always warriors, as does the term "Jedi Knights"... not "Jedi Monks" or "Jedi Hippies" The mere fact that Obi-Wan specifically tells Luke that the purpose of his becoming a Jedi will be to defeat the Empire says that the Jedi were always warriors. Obi Wan describes the Jedi Knights as having been the "guardians of peace", and mentions nothing about sending clone troopers on suicide missions, nor leaping about on battlefields cutting down sith and blasting people through mountains with the power of the force. I just never got the impression that Obi Wan was talking about the sort of stuff that goes on in SWOTR. I'm not trying to imply that they were pacifists; but at the same time, the word "Knight" does not exactly conjure images of guerrilla warfare and the use of clones as cannon fodder. ~TWF I actually agree with you there. Broadly speaking, I think that there is a disconnect between the image we're given of "Jedi" in the OT vs. what they were made out to be in the PT. I would have liked to have seen some suggestion that they questioned the morality of the whole "clone army" thing (nevermind the fact that they didn't bother trying to discern the real origin of the clones on a practical level). Actually, in that regard, the Jedi themselves were internally inconsistent in the prequels. Qui-Gon tells Padme that the Jedi can't fight a war for her. Mace tells Palpatine that the Jedi aren't his army... yet they fall quite readily into the roles of Generals over a massive army, to the point that they apparently don't have time to look into the whole "Sith" thing very much.
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scrimshank
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Post by scrimshank on Feb 15, 2012 22:03:37 GMT -5
Jedi are often self contradictory. They always say that they exist to guard and protect the republic but they're always trying to find an excuse to leave themselves out of galactic conflicts.. Take the mandalorian wars for example. I would have applauded revan's decision to fight the mandalorians. What did he Jedi think? That the mandy's would just conquer the known galaxy and everyone would be ok? Not likely..
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 15, 2012 22:12:19 GMT -5
Jedi are often self contradictory. They always say that they exist to guard and protect the republic but they're always trying to find an excuse to leave themselves out of galactic conflicts.. Take the mandalorian wars for example. I would have applauded revan's decision to fight the mandalorians. What did he Jedi think? That the mandy's would just conquer the known galaxy and everyone would be ok? Not likely.. Actually the Jedi correctly realized that the Mandalorians were only involved in the war because they wanted to challenge Jedi. If the Jedi had refused to fight, the Mandalorians would have lost interest. The Jedi weren't just a bunch of peacenick anti-war morons in that scenario. They saw that there was something more behind the Mandalorian attacks, and decided they'd be better off looking into that than trying to mount a war effort in defense of the Republic, which had it's own armies and fleets (apparently).... and I would argue that they would have been a lot better off had they done the same in the Clone Wars.
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scrimshank
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Post by scrimshank on Feb 15, 2012 22:22:02 GMT -5
Maybe, but we also have the benefit of outside knowledge that they didn't have. How could they have known that staying out of the conflict would have potentially spared them from the ravages of the imperial war? Honestly I don't think they could have suspected that the Mandy's only wanted to challenge the Jedi either. I think you might be giving them too much credit.
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 15, 2012 22:31:04 GMT -5
Maybe, but we also have the benefit of outside knowledge that they didn't have. How could they have known that staying out of the conflict would have potentially spared them from the ravages of the imperial war? Honestly I don't think they could have suspected that the Mandy's only wanted to challenge the Jedi either. I think you might be giving them too much credit. I'm giving them exactly as much credit as they deserve based on the fact that they outright tell Revan not to fight the Mandalorians for that very reason. It's also stated plain as can be in KotOR that the Jedi were investigating what was really going on.
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Post by scrimshank on Feb 15, 2012 23:01:44 GMT -5
But you really think the mandalorians would have just lost interest and left if the Jedi stayed out of it?
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 15, 2012 23:04:26 GMT -5
But you really think the mandalorians would have just lost interest and left if the Jedi stayed out of it? Yes. I think this because Mandalore says so to Canderous Ordo if you have him with you when you meet the Mandalorians. The Mandos don't care about the war. They're not conquerers. They care about challenges, and defeating the Republic (obviously) isn't much of a challenge for them.
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Post by Dhark on Feb 15, 2012 23:34:28 GMT -5
I find far too many people are WAY too passionate about Star Wars. It's like a religion or politics. Topics I try to steer clear from, especially in an open forum That said, just reading the above has fired me up and it's all I can do not to toss in my own two cents or lobby for another persons already made arguments with more supportive documentation. So. I love Star Wars. I will now leave this thread in hopes of maintaining my composure. May the Force be with anyone who sticks around for the ruffled feathers that will assuredly ensue!
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scrimshank
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Post by scrimshank on Feb 16, 2012 1:46:45 GMT -5
I don't have ruffled feathers, I've enjoyed the star wars debate. Believe it or not, after hearing his arguments I mostly agree with WK. I just don't think the Mandy's would have stopped until the Jedi entered the fray. Which means they could have sat there and waited until the mandalorians took over the galaxy or they could have fought sooner. Personally, I wouldn't back down from a challenge simply because my enemy didn't want to fight, I would keep going until they stepped up. Which is exactly what the Mandy's would have done. Sure the Jedi couldve waited, but that doesn't mean the mandy's would've stopped. I think they would've kept going until the Jedi did step in. If they had done it sooner the outcome would've been the same but it would've happened sooner with less loss of life. That's what the Jedi should've been concerned about..
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Post by roxolid on Feb 16, 2012 6:27:34 GMT -5
I no longer care about star wars enough to get worked up about it. I loved the first three movies, queued round the block to see it in 1977, several times (then was in turn made to queue for Grease about the same time...) and couldn't wait for parts V and Vi, even though the numbering confused everyone.
Had the toys, the wallpaper, the bed sheets, waited for, bought and played the RPG when it came out... The prequels held a massive interest for me (and everyone else I think - TPM, most anticipated film EVER?) but the actual result was poor.
The games have been generally good, I own a number of them, but prefer strategy to first person anyway. Loved Star Wars Supremacy (rebellion in the states?)
Overall, I'd say I was still a fan, but not of the expanded universe and certainly not the prequels. I can take or leave them, and my life won't be better or worse for it.
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scrimshank
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Post by scrimshank on Feb 16, 2012 10:36:42 GMT -5
My life actually has been enriched because of star wars. Quite some time ago I was actually hurting for some new reading material and my buddy convinced me to start reading the star wars novels, after reading timothy zahn's trilogy (I think it was dark force rising) I was comepletely hooked. And I still get that feeling of childish glee to this day everytime I pick up a new one. It may have been star wars novels that convinced me I wanted to be a writer.
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 16, 2012 11:03:44 GMT -5
I find far too many people are WAY too passionate about Star Wars. No such thing
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Post by scrimshank on Feb 16, 2012 13:12:13 GMT -5
I agree WK
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 18, 2012 1:03:25 GMT -5
Yes, that's a popsicle mold. WANT IT I DO. ~TWF
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Post by Dionon on Feb 18, 2012 1:15:00 GMT -5
Yes, that's a popsicle mold. WANT IT I DO. ~TWF That. That is awesome.
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