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Post by Manah on Jun 2, 2018 7:23:07 GMT -5
Good point, TWF. I actually have to agree with you based simply on pure logic. Flight should only be very difficult and an advanced technique when influenced by a planet's gravity. I will thus switch my complaint to this instead: Leia who survives being blasted out to outer space for what clearly appears to be at least minutes? ...She who barely got basic Jedi training? Sure. She might have survived the initial blast, and experienced Force Users have shown to be capable to survive in space for a while. EXPERIENCED Force users. I can't accept that Leia is an experienced one, because never at any point is she displayed as practicing, caring about practicing, or displaying her 'powers' up to that point. You can't just show me a Leia who still devotes her full time to politics and military leadership, not even hint that she might have received Jedi training other than being Luke's sister, and have her survive the vaccuum of space like it's no big deal. And she just happens to do it there, because 'hey it'll look cool'. Fixed.
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Post by Gris on Jun 2, 2018 7:27:48 GMT -5
I'm too tired after so much nitpicking through the Internet as to discuss specifics, at least now. Gonna throw some food for thought in here to see if it latches or not.
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Post by takewithfood on Jun 2, 2018 9:11:19 GMT -5
Note: I've given up on spoiler tags.. movie's been out for ~6 months, so I'm going to assume that if you haven't seen it you don't care. Yeah, I'm not in the "it's the worst movie ever" camp at all. I could also make several videos about the things the movie gets right, but that's all tangential to the point: The Last Jedi was incompetently made, and it doesn't matter if it gets some things right. It gets enough wrong, and in a way that enough people notice and care about them that the movie was spoiled for the bulk of the Star Wars fanbase. I'm not aware of a single word for this principle, so at the cost of fulfilling Godwin's Law I'm invoking an old t-shirt design that sums it up nicely: In other words, there comes a point where a movie makes so many mistakes that it doesn't really matter what they get right. Most of the things that bother me about the film are matters of incompetent film making, not taste. Inconsistent tone, plot holes, awkward structure, bad CG, inconsequential side plots, a general disregard for character development, improper use of bathos, etc. There are too many fundamental mistakes for it to be a coincidence or a footnote in any honest review of the film. It's objectively bad. That doesn't mean people can't or shouldn't enjoy it, though. It's absolutely possible and perfectly okay to sincerely enjoy a bad film. Some of my favourite movies are mediocre at best, whether they're "guilty pleasures" or just full of flaws that I happen to not care that much about for whatever reason. I can list dozens of shows and movies that I like or even love that range from awkward to downright awful. But it is a pretty objectively poorly made film, and unfortunately that is going to ruin it for a lot of people. I think a lot of these problems are masked by a combination of a huge budget, and the fact that it's full of Star Warsy stuff that makes it look like better films we already love. That's probably enough for a lot of people to get by on, but I'm unfortunately not in that camp. This was kinda bound to happen, too, as the problem started with production. For starters, they did not map out the trilogy before they started filming. There was no script or even an outline for The Last Jedi when they filmed The Force Awakens, and likewise there was no plan of any kind for Episode IX while they were making TLJ. They're making this up as they go along, which probably has a lot to do with hiring JJ Abrams as their director (anyone familiar with Lost will know what I'm talking about). That's sort of how they used to do sequels back in the day. You'd make a film like Die Hard, it would succeed at the box office and with fans and critics, so you'd decide to make another. That was never the plan, you didn't have a multiple-film arc planned out, you just gave people more of what they already liked and happily took their money. It's very hard to stitch two films together that way, and it's almost impossible when you end the film on a cliffhanger, change your lead writer/director, and then decide to pick up literally the next second after the first film ended. The sudden shift in storytelling, in tone and humor, in cinematography and directing, in character arcs, all occurring simultaneously in literally one second between films is super jarring for audiences. They were bound to fuck a lot up, and they did. I wouldn't expect any director to make a transition that severe look seamless, but nevertheless, Rian Johnson did a pretty poor job; he basically didn't even try. As hard as I am on him, I think not-trying was probably the right move: rather than attempt to make a JJ Abrams movie and almost certainly fail, he tried to make his own movie... but still pretty much objectively failed anyway. He took the path that had the greatest odds of succeeding, he just still rolled a natural 1. Can't be helped, I guess. Anyway, that's why I'm not really moved when people put forward an argument that basically describes some of the good parts of TLJ. It feels like a waiter pointing out how delicious the vinaigrette dressing is after I've just told him I found broken glass in my salad. It's not wrong, it's just beside the point.
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Post by Manah on Jun 2, 2018 12:04:21 GMT -5
What TWF said. Sorry, Gris, but I don't care if it did a few good things here and there. Even the sh*ttiest movies in existence did some good, and it doesn't excuse how poorly written and executed they are. Was TLJ the worst movie of all time? Of course not. Was it the most unoriginal and unimaginative movie of the Star Wars franchise? ...Nope, that would be TFA. But it was the worst in general to me and to a lot of other people. Different does not good make. And silver linings don't make up for all the bad stuff. No matter how much delicious chocolate syrup you try to add to a bucket of bantha dung, it will not taste good. My view of it stands. It's an insult to the franchise and I will never accept it as canon or anything close to it. Like I said, I respect people who like it, and I'm happy for them if they do. I will never agree with them on that matter, but I'm glad that they, at least, did not see those movies as the disasters and nonsense I perceive them as. Which, by the way, doesn't make them any less of a disaster and nonsense in my eyes. And on that note, I have already said my piece. Not trying to get in an argument about it, nor do I care to. Everyone is free to love or hate what they please as long as no one is harmed in the process, and I promise you I will never punch a Star Wars fan even if they tell me TLJ is the best movie of all time. I will, however, giggle, say 'okay then', and go on my way. As far as I'm concerned, this discussion is over. Mine was more of a statement than anything, I am not trying to persuade anyone else to agree with me. Just exposing my own views of said movies. You don't agree, that's great. Congrats on having a critical mind, everyone should and you should be proud of it, for it is an amazing quality. However, I have one as well, and it says an absence of sequels would have been better than what we got. On a more pleasant note, here's something.
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Post by Gris on Jun 3, 2018 6:15:03 GMT -5
To the specifics it is then, I'll try to keep it short.
I don't find the tone to be inconsistent, that there are plot holes abound. I don't feel the structure to be that awkward, even if it could use some tinkering. The CG looks fine and the side plots aren't inconsequential as they weight in a character development that it's probably the best of the movie. So we disagree on several points, but I won't claim the movie to be objectively bad as it's... well, I'm gonna say daring, to do so. A film can of course be plagued by things that can be dissected and found objectively bad, specially in the technical department, but also when the plot is plagued by holes and convenience, the characters behave according to the needs of said contrived plot instead of their character or there are continuity mistakes. But then, each one has to judge how much said failings weight into the movie. And remember, I'm not saying TLJ has those, I'm just saying that claiming objective truth about a piece of art (even pop, commercial one) is quite a substantial claim. If so, are there any metrics for it? Is it the critics? Is it the public? Perhaps the box office? I find objectionable to claim such a thing, specially more than once, but lets move on.
I'm aware of the production issues so to speak. Many movies have bigger problems than those, some turn out awful (hello some DCU movies) and some turn out mostly fine (hi Solo) but I'm going to try focusing on the end result, that is the finished movie itself, and the reaction of the public. Oh, before I forget, I think that characterizing good feelings towards the movie as the result of high budget and belonging to the Star Wars franchise doesn't sustain, we have just to look back to the prequels, and even if you could argue about the impact is also narrowing preemptively the motives of the ones that argue in favor of the movie, bad move (but we are past Godwin, so what the hell).
So yeah, I think that the main point of the movie and its strengths are twofold: allowing the universe to grow, offering something different and appealing to move beyond the zone of comforts Star Wars has. And offering the main characters in the movie story arcs that make them evolve and grow with it, finishing the movie in a different way they started it. To attain both of those things the movie has to make sacrifices, sometimes unavoidably, sometimes maybe out of lacking skill to do it better. I guess that it's a result of Rian lacking experience, but it's not as he lacks talent (given what he has done beforehand) but I won't be so daring to say that I know, I just guess it as having to face a Star Wars movie isn't easy given the expectation. With those two things in hand (universe and characters, specially the second), and having achieved them very nicely (again: opinion, unless the objective value turns out to be a thing, then save me a spot to claim that it objectively achieves it) the movie got me. The rest maybe not as good, yeah. It may have needlessly contrived and challenging scenes that only cause a silly discussion instead of furthering the movie's (perceived) goals? It does, specially one that does nothing to further any positives and yet create nerd talks about the particularities of the force and space vacuum physics in the Star Wars universe of all places. Sigh. We could have done without that one.
And yet, those small flaws don't sour the whole movie for me. It's like a full course meal that goes brilliantly while an obnoxious violinist bothers you from time to time. Yay for food metaphors.
And now, to address Manah's post. I swear I will try harder to keep it short.
I'm not going in what TLJ is not, nor do I want to defend TFA right now (I liked it as well, sue me), so I'll skip the start. It sounds really passionate to say that it's an insult to the franchise, but besides making me wonder who has to be the insulted one for such a thing to stand, passion alone won't help sustain such a claim. The refusal to canon acceptance is more telling, specially after the insult to the franchise argument. I'll start saying that such feelings are of course perfectly legitimate, more than understandable and fine, as such is your honest (or so I hope) reaction to the movie. But as an argument... well, lets see. Both together in the same sentence makes me think of fandom ownership, as if the story belonged to the ones consuming it and... well, it's not true. That, I insist, doesn't make your feelings about it any less valid, but it has trouble sustaining itself. Canon, when it comes to its usage about a work of fiction at least, defines what is official and what is not, defined of course (given the official nature) by the owners of said fiction. There are many ways to show displeasure, to refuse acknowledgement, and to voice the troubles with said fiction, but pretending that somehow it's canon nature is in the hands of each one of us is not one. It just doesn't make sense, something can be canon and that doesn't mean we have to like it, it just is. Do I like the prequels? Hell no. Does that make them any less canon for me or anyone else? Nope.
So... I promised to be brief. I shared those two videos as different views, maybe even different from my own, about the movie. Not really as a claim that "hey, here is some Internet rando that disagrees with you" but as a way to show other sensibilities, other perceptions on an work of art. That way maybe we can understand others better, maybe we can empathize. Maybe we don't have to promise that we wouldn't punch people over it.
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Post by takewithfood on Jun 3, 2018 7:58:56 GMT -5
Gris, I want to make it clear that I understand that you liked the movie. You don't need to tell me why or what you liked about it (though I do really enjoy discussing this stuff and seeing other people's points of view, so thank you). I have many friends who liked or loved the movie, so you're definitely not the first. And again, there are things that I love about the movie as well. I liked a lot of Rey and Kylo - they were by far my favourite parts of the movie and I wish they had more interaction. I'd watch a feature-length movie just of them arguing, pushing and pulling each other. I really liked some aspects of the Darth Hefner version of Snoke. Yes, I'm irked that he's quite different from how he was presented in TFA, but I liked the TLJ version better so a lot of that blame falls back on TFA. He's less generic, and even more believable as the mentor/crappy replacement father figure to someone as messed up as Kylo Ren. And I'm glad he died, and I'm kinda glad that he's just one of, if not the most powerful Sith or pseudo-Sith to arise in the power vacuum after Vader, rather than some oft-theorized version of an existing character. Similarly, maybe my favourite thing about the story is that Rey's parents are no one (or at least they seem to be; I give it 50/50 odds that Abrams retcons this). And Mark Hamill's performance blew my expectations away. The guy is just fantastic. Even seeing puppet Yoda didn't make me feel as much nostalgia as seeing him play Luke again. I could go on and on. But I'm not really talking about personal tastes, here; I want to talk about objective statements about art. And as much as people rankle at the idea, you can make objective statements about art on a technical level. The Mona Lisa is a portrait. It is technically more advanced than a child's crayon drawing of the sun wearing sunglasses. You can make objective statements about movies: Adding Jar Jar Binks to Shindler's List would make it objectively worse. A movie like Shindler's List is objectively trying to accomplish something specific, and in a specific way that is incompatible with the presence of a talking alien. Or take this: Even though I think the restoration on the right is more interesting and significant because it is botched, it is botched. It failed to achieve what the artist wanted to achieve. It is technically less advanced and effective. If we can't say basic, obvious things like this, then we can say nothing about the technical aspects of art. Once we establish some basic concepts like that, it's just a matter seeing how far back the line can be pushed before it becomes indistinct - the more you learn about filmmaking, the farther that line goes, and lot of TLJ's technical mistakes fall within that boundary. For example, the tone IS inconsistent in key places. Take the scene where Rey meets with Kylo and together they confront Snoke. At the time that it occurs this is THE most important scene in the new trilogy. About 3 hours of film has led to this point. And a lot of the scene is great, and I think it's overall the high point of the film; however, it is also interspersed with cuts of Finn and Rose infiltrating the ship in disguise, and at one point the movie smash-cuts from Rey standing defiantly between a kneeling Kylo Ren and a smirking, enthroned Snoke who arrogantly welcomes her to his lair, to a slapstic shot of BB8 wearing a milk crate as a disguise, accidentally rolling into a wall and knocking off a panel because he can't see. Johnson deflates the first climax of his own film, and the most important scene in the series so far, for a BB8 slapstick gag. That is the kind of tonal misstep that we haven't seen since The Phantom Menace, and yes, it's tonal inconsistency. This is the scene where Kylo Ren slays his master and invites Rey to join him. It's the scene where Rey is mocked, tortured, and sentenced to summary execution by Snoke, but also where Rey triumphs - and not by defeating Snoke with her own strength, but with her faith in Ben Skywalker, her former enemy. The fact that the BB8 gag is a tonal interruption during perhaps the biggest climax of the film is not a statement in the realm of opinion. Rian Johnson was not trying to make a farce out of this scene, but he kinda did a little. It was a mistake. Anyway, that's all I'm driving at here, and I don't think your argument has ever been "there are zero mistakes in this film", so we've gone pretty far off on this tangent. But I hope I've at least made myself understood. <3
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Post by Gris on Jun 3, 2018 8:58:19 GMT -5
Oh, your understanding of the movie or of my posts were never really up for debate, honestly, and you have left pretty clear that there are things you liked, both before this return of the thread and during the original premiere date. After that, an explanation of how art can be objectively judged wasn't really needed, as I DID acknowledge that it can be done and I DID acknowledge that this is specially easy when it comes to technique, specially if said work of art is split into its components. So I'm not gonna argue in favor of something I didn't say, moving on.
On the specifics of TLJ and how "botched" it was, how it failed to achieve the creator(s) intent, and how objectively could be deemed bad as a whole, that's another quite more difficult task entirely. Particular elements can be dissected that way, but what makes the whole movie objectively good or bad? The number of them? Their importance? If so, how can we judge said importance? It's not an easy and clear cut task, for sure. We both know people who feel all along the good<->bad spectrum about the movie, and probably not even for the same reasons, so their arguments can be better or worse formed, depending not only on their knowledge about this medium (and art in general), but also how well they can put said knowledge into words, but sure will be varied. Singling out one moment, even as an example on how badly a scene can be undermined doesn't mean much without perspective of said undermining on the work as a whole.
For example, the tone IS inconsistent in key places. Take the scene of Empire where Luke meets Vade and force powers are really used in a fight for the first time. At the time that it occurs this is THE most important scene in the new trilogy. About 3 hours of film has led to this point. And a lot of the scene is great, and I think it's overall the high point of the film; however, it is also interspersed with cuts of Lando and Leia fleeing with the rest of the bunch, and at one point the movie smash-cuts from Luke recovering for having being almost sucked out a window after being defenseless before Vader's mastery of the force, to a slapstick shot of Leia point blank shooting at fumbling stormtroopers while Chewie whines with a C3PO into pieces in his back.
See what I did there? I'm not going to continue with it, even if R2D2 is dragging C3PO along the floor just before the REVEAL of the Empire Strikes Back. And why didn't that moment or others like that make me think bad of that movie? Because the impact of that is limited, at least for me. And even if that moment was objectively wrong, how much it muddles the movie it's not as clear cut as it could seem to be, since unless some objective metric is applied, is difficult to claim an objective outcome.
Irvin Kershner (or one of the editors, no idea) wasn't trying to make a farce out of that scene and yet... wait, I said I wasn't going to continue with that.
So to sum up, I understood you perfectly, I've been making real and conscious efforts since TLJ premiered like I have rarely done before to understand the most egregious differences in perception about the movie, maybe with half a dozen movies or so, since my closest friend doesn't feel anything like me in that regard. So yeah, understanding your feelings, as you did understand mine is not really the problem. Claiming that the movie AS A WHOLE can be objectively judged it's really hard, since even awards (expert or popular ones) and scores (expert and popular ones as well) are only the sum of the feelings of a group, as broad or narrow said groups can be.
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Post by takewithfood on Jun 3, 2018 9:11:24 GMT -5
Okay, so this conversation is starting to get uncomfortable for me, so I'm just going to leave it where it is.
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Post by Manah on Jun 3, 2018 9:13:36 GMT -5
I will betray my previous statement and answer one thing you said, Gris - as we'll just have to agree to disagree on the rest - but as far as I'm concerned, stating that canon belongs 'to the owners' is wrong on many levels, even though I will grant you that it is the generally accepted meaning of the word to pretty much the entirety of this planet. I, however, could not disagree more. To me, a piece of art belongs to its creator. It may not be perfect, but it is his, or hers. And if people dislike it, it's still 'the word of God', and that's fine with me. I thoroughly hate the idea that you just buy the rights and poof, you can veto whatever the original creator said was right or true. It's an incredibly materialistic and capitalistic idea which I do not subscribe to. Creation and art should not depend on who has the money. It should depend on who has the talent and made the thing originally. You're right, that's not how it is in our society, but I think that would be the moral way to go. So as far as I'm concerned, those new owners are not building upon it. They are destroying most of what was there (the EU - and yes, I know Lucas did not make the EU, but he okayed it, so it was fine to me) and messing up what's left. Like the EU, I would have given it a pass even if not Lucas if it was at all good, but... well, you've seen my thoughts, and I already said enough. My 'insult to the franchise' and 'refusal to canon' statements are not arguments, so deconstructing them as such is a waste of time and energy. They are descriptions of my feelings. The arguments are everything else I said, and those are the results. So... yeah, still maintaining my original opinion. TFA and TLJ may not be bad movies, but they're horrible Star Wars to me. I'll pass and move on with everything else that Star Wars had to offer before those guys messed it all up. I'll stop now. Thanks for the discussion and have a nice day.
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Post by Gris on Jun 3, 2018 9:27:22 GMT -5
Okay, so this conversation is starting to get uncomfortable for me, so I'm just going to leave it where it is. I'm sorry for that and it wasn't my intent at all. Poor excuse, I know, but I'm still deeply and genuinely sorry as you are a great person to discuss stuff with. I respect it though and I'm not addressing the issue again but one last thing I have to clarify with Manah.
Me making what canon means clear didn't mean that I was pleased of how it works or how can be used to undermine an artistic creation. Hell this is a Marvel forum where any creations their writers and artists make are instantly Marvel's to be done and undone at their wish. But that doesn't change what is or isn't canon, and as I said your feelings are more than legitimate, obviously, but as the ones of any other fan don't extend beyond their reach.
And yeah, I wanted to engage in discussion but I guess that passion overtake me, once again a poor excuse, but I'm sorry for any distress I caused anyone here. I'm bowing out of the discussion until it shifts back to Solo or something else like any trailers or news on future Star Wars movies and/or series.
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Post by Manah on Jun 3, 2018 9:33:47 GMT -5
Of course you're passionate about it, we love the damn thing. XD
EDIT: I'll also point out I was referring to the changes affecting my headcanon. While it doesn't 'change' official canon, it changes the fact of whether or not I care about official canon, as in I don't. It also changes that a lot of people have boycotted Solo, and will boycott IX. That actually might have an effect on official canon, because if the creators are not making money, they might change the way they go about things. Or not. At this point, I guess they can do what they please. And so can I, and what I please is ignoring whatever they put out unless they re-do it all, in which case I will take a look to see if it's better and react accordingly. If not, then "Star Wars" to me will be episodes I to VI, and most of the EU except the stuff that makes no sense to me. "It doesn't impact the official canon"? ...*Shrugs.*
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Post by takewithfood on Jun 3, 2018 9:44:53 GMT -5
I'm bowing out of the discussion until it shifts back to Solo or SOLO WAS AN OBJECTIVELY BAD MOVIE AND j/k It's okay, no harm done. <3
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Post by Manah on Jun 3, 2018 9:50:30 GMT -5
It's actually the only one I might care enough about to watch after this whole situation, as I heard it was actually pretty good.
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Post by Gris on Jun 3, 2018 9:58:40 GMT -5
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Post by Manah on Jun 3, 2018 10:13:50 GMT -5
Oh, don't worry. I hate movie theaters. If I watch it, it will be in the comfort of my home. Thanks for the warning though.
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