Question on Phase shift...

[Rinjo]

Ok forget the description of the swords. They are really not important. The armor has the ability shift. The swords are mega weapons that count as power armor mods. The description I made was for sake of argument only . I paid 4w for each sword (6 stones each).

Therefore, the swords are actually part of the armor. They are not just some off the rack weapons. The example I gave of them having electric panels was unnecessary and I think it may have caused confusion. Suffice it to say, they are mega-weapons... therefore power armor mods that are a part of the armor. It should be fairly easy to control an object your holding. If you unphase the hand holding for a split second and rephase it... bam phase attack as the sword would become unphased. Easy enough to work out.

However all that said and done I agree with this statement:

On a side note, if it were allowed in the first place, I'd probably hesitate to give it 2x damage. Electricity already goes through the internal organs and such as it stands. As you've said yourself, it bypasses all defense and goes straight into you, full-force. It makes little difference where it starts, IMO.

Because it is electricity I dont think it would matter where it initiates. As long as it hits they are getting full damage. Therefore I believe that electrification would apply on a phase attack, but as the damage is added after (and not as part of the attack per say) it would not get the double bonus.

One thing said that I didn't agree with was the line of thinking that "You cannot double damage without paying for it". I take issue with that because you cannot double close combat damage without paying for it... yet phase attack doubles those stones as well.

Bottom line, if it was an electric PSI-Weapon Where all of the stones are lumped together in one pile I would say the damage is doubled. because it is added after attack stones are resolved it really isn't in that pile of stones that get doubled... therefore no double damage!

I also dont agree with not being able to phase your weapons. You are combining phase with close combat. If you use the weapon bonus the stones are added to the pile... when you combine phase attack with close combat + its ability bonus they are all one phased attack.

That is the one reason I am agreeing with everyone that electrification is not doubled. At no point are those stones thrown into that attack pile. They are just extra damage that occurs automatically (albeit on their own) if/when any other attack hits...

[malice]

The reason I don't allow phase attackers to allow weapon modifiers (other than just my visualization of how the action works) is to keep their attack stones down. Usually I'm not the GM who puts his foot down, because I feel like there's usually a better solution, but the kinds of high attacks people can already pull off with weapons + the brutal damage of phase attack is something I don't allow to be combined. Perhaps I might some day get comfortable letting them ignore armor without doubling their damage on their weapons, but I probably won't ever let someone pull off a full phase attack with their two weapon modifiers.

[thanos]

One question then that I have for Malice is this:
When you combine abilities, do you also get to combine the bonuses as well or are you limited to only 1 bonus under normal circumstances?

Ie, Phased Attack lets you add in Close Combat do you get the Strength Bonus as well?
OR Close Combat (with a Strength bonus) added to Acrobatics (with an Agility bonus) when jumping off a building onto somebody.

I can understand having paid for Strength + Agility bonus with Close combat (like Spidey) and adding in Acrobatics. Does he get to add in Agility a second time from acrobatics. All that assumes he has the energy to do it, which he doesn't, but assuming he did.

[malice]

I don't allow the same ability bonus (i.e. Strength) to be used twice by two combined actions. So the guy with Acrobatics (Strength Bonus) and Close Combat (Strength Bonus) jumping on someone's head gets their strength bonus once. My reasoning is that when combining actions it doesn't matter how many stones come from one and how many from another, they're combined for the moment, and so the ability bonus doesn't get repeated. Differing bonuses are allowed though, so if you had something other than a strength bonus on Close Combat you could combine it with the strength bonus from Acrobatics.

I can understand GMs who do it differently though, because this is one area where I haven't delved much. Most of my players (I haven't actually GMed a game since summer began) haven't really been up to speed on combining actions ('cept the phase attackers of course) and many still think it's necessary to get it all in one.

[thanos]

All I know is that Electra could be very nasty if she had more Energy...Ninja 7, two weapon bonuses +2 +2, acrobatics 6, and agility 3 all put together....20 stones of attack, +1 Sit mod for attacking from above ;-)

[Rinjo]

Yes but if she had higher Durability she probaly couldnt afford all of the other skills. Ninja 7 alone costs 25w!

A lot of these situations are self limiting. For example you can combine Phase Shift and Flight into close combat. However you can only perform 2 actions at a time... still your example of Close Combat + Acrobatics is interesting. You could have quite a few stones if they used different bonuses.

A fun character I built has a low close combat with a high modifier but the Disables if any damage occurs (+5) tacked on. (He is a pressure point fighter). So for now he is a little underpowered, but as he 'levels up' he will be very, very nasty.

Anyway... this is a hard one because now we are getting into the realm where we are disreguarding the rule in favor of limiting overall attack stones. This is a tough one for me... even thought he rules in the handbook are often sketchy at best.

Ultimately when you get into these kinds of 'I prefer lower stones...' discussions it is purley at GM discretion. I believe I have interpreted the rules correctly, but a GM can always say: I dont agree and I wont allow... Still countering these types of things seem easy enough. Telepaths and Magicians... Moreso telepaths as magicians are not exactly offensive powerhouses. (though thye could turn my swords into flowers I suppose...)

But I digress... I think I am convinced because the book allows you to combine the stones with close combat. it doesnt say substitute as a weapon or ability MOD. Therefore the stones from Phase Shift are combined with your close combat (ie. Ninja) stones. Therefore the entire pile is considered a phase attack. Just as if I combined it with Close Combat using only the ability Mod (which is usually higher than the weapon mod anyway...)

[malice]

I don't prefer lower stones. I actually prefer my PCs to be powerful and fully capable of doing lots of damage (What kind of superhuman can't do mad damage?), but I also have an eye for when enough is enough in terms of power.

Also keep in mind my understanding of how phase shift works is the first reason I didn't allow weapon mods. It just didn't make sense to be able to add 2x and AP to everything you touched.

[Rinjo]

So I have a question for you. What if you took 2x damage and AP options with close combat. Would that extend to your ability bonus and/or weapon mod?

[Brainstem]

Yes, rinjo, it would. In theory, a player could get CC: 1, purchase those advantages (maybe even a disadvantage to get rid of the ability or weapon mod), and get Claws at a high level to totally dominate the battle field. To illustrate (because I've been doing a lot of this lately) with a sample character:

Jimbo (Powered Armor Roxxorz)

Abilities
Intelligence: 2/4 (1w2r)
Strength: 1/2 (2r)
Agility: 1/2 (2r)
Speed: 1 (1r)
Durability: 1/3 (2w)

Total Cost: 4w1r

Actions

PA Close Combat: 1 (2r)
Works at Range 5 (+4 CL)
No Ability Bonus (-2CL)

PA Phase Shift: 1 (2w)
Phase Attack (+3)
Phase Stun (+2)
Doesn't aid others (-2)

PA Force Field: 8 (12w)
Acts as a Modifier (+3)
Does Not Benefit Others (-2)
Can't be improved (-2)

Total Cost: 14w2r

Modifiers

Claws: 7 (15w after Wealth Cost Break)
Wealth: 5 (3w)
Energy Defense: 5 (1w)
Mental Defense: 5 (3w)
Magic Defense: 5 (3w)

Total Cost: 25w

Total Character Cost: 43w1r[/b]

Basically, you have a character that can deal up to 18 points of damage in one hit, armor penetrating, will cause any character hit to be stunned, and up to a Range of 5, that only takes 2 stones of energy to fuel. In addition, you don't have to worry too much about taking damage, as you have a free Force Field action (treated as a modifier!) that protects you from the first 16 stones of damage that are done to you. Can Jimbo do much else, but would he really need to, anyway?

Things like this can be done, but generally speaking, a GM should not approve Jimbo, here. His power is ridiculous and he probably won't be taking much damage if he doesn't get the jump on anybody. Phase Shift is a dangerously powerful Action if used "properly," so just make sure not to let it get out of control.

[beryl]

rinjo said:

So I have a question for you. What if you took 2x damage and AP options with close combat. Would that extend to your ability bonus and/or weapon mod?

I'd hesitate with the Weapon Mod part.

The AP option is listed with the modifiers for a reason: it reflects that there's something about your character that allows them to penetrate armor. For Wolverine, it's his claws. By necessity, you have to evaluate it on a case-by-case basis. Sometimes it makes sense for the AP to carry over. Other times, it doesn't. Wolverine can carve his way out of a jail cell in three seconds, but he couldn't do it with a bowie knife. If he tried that, he'd get no AP at all.

I don't see a problem with allowing stones from an ability bonus to penetrate armor, provided that the method falls in line with the player's reasoning for having AP in the first place.

If you apply 2x damage, that's a direct option for Close Combat, and would be more easily attributed to fighting style or something. I'd let that carry over to weapons and ability bonuses, no problem.

[thanos]

Case against CC Weapon Bonus with Phase Attack.

Weapons give bonuses because they are weapons. The allow whomever is wielding them to utilize their ability (ie heavy weight, to clobber, cutting ability). With a Phase Attack a character is already ignoring what a close combat weapon is built to do, cut/clobber the external defenses (such as toughness and armor) and get to the vital organs/mechanisms inside. Phase Attack and Close Combat Weapons(& most Modifiers such as claws) should be mutually exclusive. The only time a weapon might be useful is in reaching the target, but in Close Combat that shouldn't be a problem.

Ability Bonuses would be allowed, because they represent speed, precision, accuracy, and things that help the Phase Attacker get their attack where to its target.

Electrification requires a connected circuit which would require contact between two physical things. Phase Shift/Stun/Attack negates Physical anything from working.

Brainstem,
Like the Character, but the character would need a MUCH higher Intelligence, Technology, and Inventing in order to make that piece of Power Armor, unless you made him into a Robot and then he would be just SICK and wrong, but not get the Wealth break. Also, how does one make an Invention that can't be improved, such as the Forcefield? Not that you can't take, Counter Attack Only and Can't Split between Offense and Defense to make up for it. ;-)

[Brainstem]

An Intelligence of 2 is certainly enough to operate Powered Armor, by the rules, of course. Nothing states that characters need certain levels in different Actions or Abilities to use a piece of Powered Armor; just think of Jimbo as the driver with somebody else in charge of building the equipment. The purpose of the character was really to write up a way to exploit the rules as written and show that it has many, many combos that are completely broken. I hadn't thought of making him a robot, either. I think he needs a test run soon...

[beryl]

thanos said:

Brainstem,
Like the Character, but the character would need a MUCH higher Intelligence, Technology, and Inventing in order to make that piece of Power Armor, unless you made him into a Robot and then he would be just SICK and wrong, but not get the Wealth break.

That's easy: Jimbo is filthy stinking rich, and hired Freddy to make him some powered armor. You don't need to be able to make or repair it to pilot it.

Also, how does one make an Invention that can't be improved, such as the Forcefield? Not that you can't take, Counter Attack Only and Can't Split between Offense and Defense to make up for it. ;-)

It could be reasoned that the force field is "old tech" and can't be upgraded without being fully replaced. Also, it may be integrated into the armor in such a way that it cannot be improved upon without basically scrapping the armor and rebuilding a new suit from scratch.