Combining Ninja and Black Ops

[Lord_Amadeus_Rahl]

Is there any way to combine these two actions for assassination?

[dorkknight23]

Jul 12, 2014 18:36:13 GMT -5 Lord_Amadeus_Rahl said:

Is there any way to combine these two actions for assassination?

If the Gamemaster approves, sure. If it's something you want to do multiple panels an issue, an advantage (+1 to +3 is generally accepted, but your GM gets final approval, obviously,) to one of those options might be in order. The Guide to the X-Men discusses this in further detail on page 54, and more general discussion is in the core rulebook on pages 83-84. Hope that helps!

[Brainstem]

It depends on how you're using it. I would say "yes" to combinations that involve sneaking and spying, but "no" to uses that involve attacking opponents.

[Silentking Alpha]

At first I thought Black Ops was included in Ninja. Then I noticed that Elektra had them separate, which made me go

[Manah]

Jul 26, 2014 9:37:18 GMT -5 Brainstem said:

It depends on how you're using it. I would say "yes" to combinations that involve sneaking and spying, but "no" to uses that involve attacking opponents.

...So... a specialist in infiltration, stealth and possibly even "Assassination" (a specialty available among those described in the book) wouldn't be able to use those skills to land a deadly attack that will definitely be more useful than just walking up to a guy and attack, despite the many possibilities where that might apply (a sniper headshotting someone, a knife assassin slicing a throat, a hands-to-hands commando breaking a neck, etc)? Just saying, but as far as I'm concerned, a Stealth action is one of the actions I would most easily accept to see combined, along with Movement actions. Not one of the least likely to be combined, far from it.

I would handle it like I handle almost any action, unless it 'truly' doesn't make sense. I would allow it to be combined once or twice a game session/issue, but if the player starts using it more often, I would have them buy the option "may combine with". The only actions I do not allow to be combined with Close or Ranged combat ever are things like General Knowledge, Technology (although these two may be used beforehand with appropriate specialties to gain sitmods on the attack depending on the target), Medical Healing...

Others may require a lot more explanation to use, but I can usually allow it if the player is being creative ("I put stones in Social Skills to distract the man and make him think I'm friendly so he drops his guard, and the moment I'm close, I attack"), in which case if the roleplay is good, I might allow full combination, and if it's so-so but the player spent enough stones, I may only give a few sitmods.

Anyway, just my two cents.

At first I thought Black Ops was included in Ninja. Then I noticed that Elektra had them separate, which made me go

If you thought that at first, then you were right. Black Ops is clearly included in Ninja, as is mentioned in the action's description.

However, think about it. If you only take Ninja, every time you want to attack a foe while remaining out of sight and silent, you will have to split your stones, and thus make both your stealth and attacks less effective. Buying Black Ops despite having Ninja is actually an excellent idea for those multitasking situations.

[Brainstem]

Jul 30, 2014 10:38:42 GMT -5 Manah said:

Jul 26, 2014 9:37:18 GMT -5 Brainstem said:

It depends on how you're using it. I would say "yes" to combinations that involve sneaking and spying, but "no" to uses that involve attacking opponents.

...So... a specialist in infiltration, stealth and possibly even "Assassination" (a specialty available among those described in the book) wouldn't be able to use those skills to land a deadly attack that will definitely be more useful than just walking up to a guy and attack, despite the many possibilities where that might apply (a sniper headshotting someone, a knife assassin slicing a throat, a hands-to-hands commando breaking a neck, etc)? Just saying, but as far as I'm concerned, a Stealth action is one of the actions I would most easily accept to see combined, along with Movement actions. Not one of the least likely to be combined, far from it.

I would handle it like I handle almost any action, unless it 'truly' doesn't make sense. I would allow it to be combined once or twice a game session/issue, but if the player starts using it more often, I would have them buy the option "may combine with". The only actions I do not allow to be combined with Close or Ranged combat ever are things like General Knowledge, Technology (although these two may be used beforehand with appropriate specialties to gain sitmods on the attack depending on the target), Medical Healing...

Others may require a lot more explanation to use, but I can usually allow it if the player is being creative ("I put stones in Social Skills to distract the man and make him think I'm friendly so he drops his guard, and the moment I'm close, I attack"), in which case if the roleplay is good, I might allow full combination, and if it's so-so but the player spent enough stones, I may only give a few sitmods.

Anyway, just my two cents.

At first I thought Black Ops was included in Ninja. Then I noticed that Elektra had them separate, which made me go

If you thought that at first, then you were right. Black Ops is clearly included in Ninja, as is mentioned in the action's description.

However, think about it. If you only take Ninja, every time you want to attack a foe while remaining out of sight and silent, you will have to split your stones, and thus make both your stealth and attacks less effective. Buying Black Ops despite having Ninja is actually an excellent idea for those multitasking situations.

Ninja has too much going for it; it doesn't need to freely combine with everything tangentially related on every action. The fact that having them separately gives you more stones to put towards both should be enough of a benefit to it.

[Manah]

That's an opinion/house rule, and I respect it, but isn't what the book says. I was answering according to the book, plus my own opinion as a side note. The book states that most actions can be combined if there's a good reason, and there's an option for if it becomes too much of an habit. Considering what Ninja represents, I see no reason to exclude it specifically and not other actions.

Besides, Ninja costs AN+5. I think you pay more than enough for those benefits. (An opinion as well, granted, but it does cost several stones. XD)

[Brainstem]

I still disagree; even allowing Ninja to combine with Black Ops is a favorable House Rule. Ninja is Black Ops. Along the same lines, I wouldn't allow Ninja to combine with Close Combat. You're double dipping in a way that's contrary to the nature of the system.

And yeah, it's AN+5, but think about how much each of its contained Actions purchased at the same AN would cost if separate? Just like Master of Elements, you make the choice to sacrifice flexibility for Action Box economy and a price cut. If you really want to combine your Black Ops and Close Combat, then purchase them as two separate Actions and combine them that way.

[Manah]

Ninja is Black Ops. Along the same lines, I wouldn't allow Ninja to combine with Close Combat. You're double dipping in a way that's contrary to the nature of the system.

And here I'm the one who disagrees. That again is an opinion. Ninja is Ninja, Black Ops is Black Ops. If Ninja was Black Ops, they wouldn't have put it in. They simply say it includes aspects of it, and nothing says anywhere it cannot be combined (as opposed to the passage that says most actions can be). Additionally, if a character had both Close Combat and Ninja, while I wouldn't allow both to be combined together by saying 'I just fight using both styles very hard', I would allow the combination if Ninja was used for Stealth and Close Combat to attack, for the same reasons I would allow Ninja to be combined with Black ops for a stealth kill.

There is no double-dipping on my part, especially not in a contrary nature to the system's: the system itself says it can be done. I'm not saying it's fine or anything, but I do say it is perfectly acceptable to allow it under certain circumstances having to do with reason and logic.

And yeah, it's AN+5, but think about how much each of its contained Actions purchased at the same AN would cost if separate? Just like Master of Elements, you make the choice to sacrifice flexibility for Action Box economy and a price cut. If you really want to combine your Black Ops and Close Combat, then purchase them as two separate Actions and combine them that way.

......Whiiiiich is compensated with by the way you can't use them separately at once and have to split stones thus making you less good at it if you use different aspects at once. If you pay for both actions separately, you deserve the right to use them both at once. After all, you paid for that right.

In other words, you see it one way, I see it the other. Let's just agree to disagree and call it a day.

[Lord_Amadeus_Rahl]

Well, I certainly didn't expect such a large discussion on this post, lol, but that you all for your help

[Manah]

My pleasure. ^_^ I'm happy to be of help.