First, thanks to you all for your posts. I had some questions about several points and everything was in this board ! I just read the 2.0 rules, really good job (i already had the home rule to separate energy from durability). I have a final question : i read again and again the magic rules but I can't just understand why you would buy voodoo magic or witchcraft while you can buy Sorcery which do it all at the same cost (N+2).
I'm sorry if the question was already answered but I couldn't find it Another annoyance may be my English level, but it's not my native language again !
Post by lilithsboy on Sept 29, 2015 13:57:17 GMT -5
Sorcery is commonly understood to not be able to perform the actions of the other schools of magic. As such those with witchcraft are better at buffing and debuffing people than those that use sorcery.
lilithsboy : to apply your rule requires to know everything other magics types (witchcraft for example) can perform. And then Sorcery is only able to do the rest. Am I Right ? It seems quite hard to put in effect, but I may be wrong
My idea to augment the cost of sorcery was that other magics are more restricted but cost the same (witchcraft also has the 2*mastery of magic limitation). Or maybe I could consider to lower the cost of other magic ?
Anyway thanks for your patience (with my questions and my English)
Post by lilithsboy on Oct 10, 2015 13:50:01 GMT -5
Yes and no. Witchcraft can do thing things it specifically says it can do but if you can make sense of it then you should be able to do that. Example: In one game I am playing I use witchcraft to perform a ritual and set up things in such a way that I am gaining multiple effects at one time. Now nowhere does it say in witchcraft that you can do a ritual magic.
I almost always go Witchcraft over Sorcery when given the chance. Sorcery is not all that powerful the reason is you pay for everything. I am going to show this by using Human Torch and Dr.Strange two the most iconic characters in marvel. Then using the same example show how a witch will work it.
Each wants to blast a hole into a 10-foot door to a mountain base. At range 4 and need 8 stones of damage to do it.
Human Torch: 4 in mastery Less than half his energy total (9)
Dr.Strange: Master of magic would require and extra panel and besides he can't actually do 7 damage as 6 is the master limit. So he goes to sorcery. 4 stones so he can have the range required + 8 stones for damage= 12 (The strongest sorcerer in the world barely has enough stones in his reserve to match what Human Torch did if the door had been any tougher he would have had to call his friend Mr.Storm to burn it down)
Now you might try and say that Human torch paid more for his action (human torch's mastery of fire is +6 and he has it at a 7 so that is a 13 level 30w stone action)
Dr.Stranges sorcery is a +7 he has it at 6 (his stone count is 30 for that too) so they are even for that one action but in order to have his magic at that level he also has to have a +2 at 3 minimum and this is before adding options). That is another 3 stones
So economically speaking since blasting is something every character can do Human torch paid 30 stones to do a job using about 1/3rd of the stones that Dr.Strange did with an action that at minimum cost him 33 stones.
Now examining this with a witch.
Dr.Strange still needs his 11 stones
Agatha Harkness (most famous witch in Marvel) needs 2 A single Chaos orb will do it and 2 is all you need to affect that much area. Properly defined as remove all obstacles (hex orb will need more time if it is more specific than that)
Now while Harkness will have a much higher AN than 2 that means she needs 1+2 mastery of magic and 2+2 witchcraft (3w spent in creation stones) and 2 energy (blows even Johnny right out of the water here.)
Last Edit: Oct 10, 2015 13:51:27 GMT -5 by lilithsboy
Example of getting through that big nasty door for Sorcery/MoM is rather unimaginative.
MoM literally gives an example of creating a 25' hole in the ground using 3 stones (pg64 MURPG) which means a 10' hole would cost 2 stones.
Same page quote from Sorcery, "Sorcery is the most versatile branch of magic. As a Sorcerer, you can do pretty much do anything you can imagine. The effects are as varied as making everyone around you weightless or opening up the side of a mountain so you can walk through it."
Sorcery could literally turn the door into air, water, or jello for a few stones, temporarily or permanently.
Also, Sorcery could 'unlock' the door for 1 stone and the Sorcerer could just push/pull it open for 1 more stone in Str or Sorcery. -Yes, this is better than mundane people picking a lock, but its MAGIC.
Witchcraft (and every other Sorcery like action such as Voodoo, etc) seem to be able to do most everything Sorcery does with a few specific bonuses here and there, BUT it seems to me that all of them are basically about getting Situational Modifiers as bonuses for Roleplaying the description of the magic.
Not talking about the ground talking about something with an actual resistance. If you read the book and look a couple pages up here is what is about magic and how you deal with things like resistance. "Here is the most important thing to remember about magic in the Marvel Universe Roleplaying Game. No matter how you describe a magical Action you still spend red stones they are treated just like any other red stones.
The example was not about being imaginative it was put in very simplistic terms because I needed to show at the base level how things work. Which you obviously still did not seem to understand because you believe Sorcery is temporary or permanent at will it isn't duration is something you must spend for in Sorcery.
The only way Sorcery can turn a door to air permanently is by obliterating it with damage, though if you need that door to come back you are out of luck. There is no way for you to turn water to jello permanently the closest you could probably get as far as the DR chart is a century. Please remember that as per above "you still spend red stones they are treated just like any other red stones."
The ground most certainly would have resistance. Hitting it from any great height certainly causes damage. MoM can make a hole in the ground regardless of resistance because all of the stones are used for area in the example and its obviously temporary. Now, making something permanent, like turning Steel to Air does mean its resistance needs to be overcome. Which means Resistance+1stone for a 1 area effect. There is no need to directly attack it with a 'magic bolt' at range.
Now if you want to make an enchantment on a Sword near permanent, then yes, busting 9-10 stones into duration is what you would need to do.
Turning Steel to Air will require that yes now how long is it Air? 0 Rounds. What part of just like any other action was ambiguous? If you were to try to destroy it entirely (i.e. make it air permanently) you would need Resistance but also the difficulty of ripping it apart, because that is what you are doing to the steel door. Please note that Dr.Strange has a 6 and does barely meet the difficultly required of even the lowest grade steel ergo the Sorcerer Supreme (who's sheet is what 135+ white stones?) can barely do what you are saying. If a PC is not quite as good as the best Sorcerer earth has to offer I would say a magician can simply move the door out of phase give a lower difficulty but require a duration. But yes to remove it out of existence you would use the same calculations as anyone else doing exactly the same be it through elemental focus, strength, or magic.
Remember Resistance is optional to an extent and honestly putting a hole in the ground is something that the vast majority of characters can do in their own way I would say difficulty 3 no resistance... (note difficulty 3 is smashing bricks)
Last Edit: Jun 9, 2016 23:51:00 GMT -5 by lilithsboy
It's cool I actually enjoy talking about the games so even if you come late I will respond . And sorry for the late response but Easter was a really busy time for me. Now there is a big wall of text here so I am going to quote you but I am not great at is so if I screw up sorry.
For starters neither of them have to exceed the Resistance, they only need to meet it; and because this is a matter of overcoming Resistance and not overcoming Defense and then dealing damage. I'm pretty sure HT's 2x damage does not apply - he would have to use the same 8 stones that Strange does, not 4.[
For objects in order to damage them you have to meet the resistance and what is left is the dmg. Now I am going to refer you to Core Rules pg 45 an example that has Gambit blowing a hole in a wall. The reason for this is clear as it is literally the exact same situation. Gambit puts 4 stones gets 2x to 8 has 5 resistance removed 3 stone hole.
It is also worth noting that Strange doesn't really need to pay anything for Range if he simply flew up to the door (with free stones from his cape of levitation - and with flight speed 3 he really can cover that distance in seconds) and struck the door with his 8-stone effect at point blank range (which is to say not ranged at all, which is to say no cost for range).
For one reason or another both need to do this at range I understand it seems odd to say this about a simple door but perhaps without the smoke from the blast some form of security would be activated or what have you. But still I wanted to show how a simple force blast is harder for a sorcerer than a normal character worth less than 1/3rd his stones.
Further, for ANY effect he wants to place on the door (phased, teleported, turned into water/iron filings/glitter--WHATEVER!), it only takes the same 8 stones (Duration would still cost extra, but that's the only added expense).
Yes sorcery is thematic and interesting and pretty but we are talking about the difference mechanics wise we have already discussed why it is 12 and not 8 here.
Also, if Strange used Summoning to invoke an effect on the door, he could get the full 8-stone effect for only 4 of his own Energy, in which case he could actually afford the extra 4 stones for Range and it still would only cost him 8 stones.
We are talking specifically about sorcery here and how it does not do things the others can sometimes in fact this helps my point a bit as this whole thing was to show that sometimes the other schools of magic work best... Just remember invoking should have it's own dangers like having to thank the invoked being properly later, them saying no, or them not realizing they have been invoked for a while and the blast coming at an inopportune moment.
Also, Strange has the Accumulate Energy option on his MoM, so he regenerates 10 of his 12 Energy every Panel.
This one is special I agree with you but there are some people on this forum who will try to argue you to the ground and say you only get that regen when using MoM... Which is to say either 1. never or 2. that is the power I put stones into for my defense.