|
Post by Gris on Jun 10, 2017 3:58:19 GMT -5
We already have a teaser trailer, and even if I don't like the character at all, the movie looks better than expected.
|
|
|
Post by takewithfood on Jun 10, 2017 9:09:21 GMT -5
Man, even the Pink Panther is getting a gritty modern reboot now. Is nothing sacred? Seriously, though, the first thing I noticed is the colour grading. That may seem weird, but Marvel's lackluster colour grading has been one of the few major weak points during their decade of box office domination. ( Here is an excellent short video essay on the subject). They have recently started correcting this trend, noticeably in Guardians of the Galaxy Vol 2, and from the look of things in Thor 3, as well. However, what those two movies have in common is that they take place in a much more bizarre, goofy, outer-space setting. Marvel has yet to apply this new look to a movie set on Earth, with more familiar, nominally human characters like Iron Man and Captain America, and I've been curious as to whether they would start at least blending the two looks. Sure enough, it looks like this movie is at least using a lot more colour than we're used to seeing on Earth, but I'm not really sure the colour values have changed all that much. And that would be a huge shame: a movie like Black Panther should have actual black colour values, dontcha think? I feel like Wakanda is the perfect place to start introducing this new look, as while on one hand it's on Earth and features a nominally human super hero, it's also actually a fictional, borderline fantasy place. Basically, compare what Civil War looked like to what Thor: Ragnarok is going to look like; I'm hoping Black Panther will be exactly between those two looks, and that it will eventually become the norm, or minimum setting for future Marvel digital films. Anyway, uhm, other than that, it looks neat? I'm not a huge Black Panther fan in general, but I loved the character in Civil War and I'm pumped to see more of him. The CG at the end was a little questionable. Costume design looks reminiscent of what we've seen from GotG and Thor lately, and that's okay, probably a good thing. I'm in. ~TWF
|
|
|
Post by takewithfood on Feb 11, 2018 22:39:31 GMT -5
Since I decided ages ago to see this movie, I have been avoiding all the other trailers and scenes as best I can. However, I did see that it's doing exceptionally well with critics, so that's a good sign. I can't help but wonder (pun intended) how much of this is the Wonder Woman effect: It hasn't escaped notice that this is the first MCU film with a black lead, nevermind a predominantly black cast, set primarily in Africa (even if Wakanda is fictional), and I feel like WW got a bit of a bump with critics because of the excitement over its female lead/cast and director.
Looking forward to catching it sometime next week. Fingers crossed, expectations hopefully low enough.
|
|
|
Post by WildKnight on Feb 12, 2018 19:42:57 GMT -5
We already have a teaser trailer, and even if I don't like the character at all, the movie looks better than expected. That's my take as well. I've never liked BP as a character (he's all of Batman's flaws as a character, on steroids), but the movie looks to be really good. Of course in fairness, short of Fan4stic, Michael B. Jordan in pretty much anything catches my interest.
|
|
|
Post by takewithfood on Feb 13, 2018 18:10:40 GMT -5
HOLY CRAP DUDE HELLO
It's so good to see you, you don't even know.
|
|
|
Post by WildKnight on Feb 13, 2018 18:27:57 GMT -5
HOLY CRAP DUDE HELLO It's so good to see you, you don't even know. Good to see you too man. I'm setting up to run a game here with some of the old gang, so I should be around a bit. Probably won't be prowling the forums much, but I'm here-ish.
|
|
|
Post by Manah on Feb 14, 2018 17:04:09 GMT -5
HOLY CRAP DUDE HELLO It's so good to see you, you don't even know. Gotta say, I was wondering where you had vanished to myself. Couldn't see you anywhere.
|
|
|
Post by WildKnight on Feb 16, 2018 21:12:56 GMT -5
Movie was awesome. Best Marvel since Winter Soldier
|
|
|
Post by Gris on Feb 17, 2018 5:17:35 GMT -5
Liked it, solid movie with a decent plot and an amazing assortment of acting talent. That said, it feels like a very, very safe movie that's quite traditionally "a first superhero movie" so it's a bit disappointing as the themes and characters introduced aren't explored with the required depth.
|
|
|
Post by takewithfood on Feb 23, 2018 11:20:40 GMT -5
I saw it yesterday. It was okay. Kinda good, but kind of a mess if you're picky about film making (like I am). So, I'll start with what I liked: I like that they tried some new and bold things. They really went to town designing Wakanda, the clothes, the architecture, hair/makeup/accessories, etc. It was beautiful and I often found myself ignoring the actors so I could take in more of the details. I liked a lot of the performances. I especially enjoyed Florence Kasumba's Ayo, and Winston Duke's M'Baku; both were scene stealers. Andy Serkis was fantastic and I'm annoyed that Klaue is almost certainly dead. This might be the most I've ever enjoyed Michael B. Jordan since The Wire. I liked that the romance plot between T'Challa and Nakia was so relaxed. There was no forced tension or drama sparked by some kind of idiot ball plot, just two people who respect and admire one another very deeply doing their best to balance their passions in their lives with their passion for one another. It was a little boring, but refreshing. On to stuff that disappointed me: Almost every element of the plot and how it was/wasn't executed. More specifically, two big problems: 1. The real threat T'Challa must face is not Killmonger's history and desire for the throne, it's Wakanda's completely fucked-up method of choosing its King. Why the hell should a brief ritual combat on a waterfall determine who gets to be King of the most powerful nation on Earth?? The movie adequately demonstrates that this is a terrible idea. 2. Nobody seems to notice that it's a huuuuuuge problem, nor do they even briefly consider fixing it. As soon as Killmonger beats T'Challa, like 95% of Wakanda just goes "Okay, so we all now obey a total psychopath. Let's do everything he says, up to and including burning our own sacred heritage and murdering each other on his command." Dude even straight-up murdered Forest Whitaker, who wasn't even taking part in the challenge, and nobody did shit about it. Is that in the rules to Murderball? He's allowed to just stab anyone he wants? I don't understand this sport at all. Maybe you guys shouldn't be looking down on less technologically advanced nations.. I really cannot stress enough that the entire plot of the movie fails if the rules to Murderball aren't completely idiotic. And while I loved Killmonger, I feel like he severely overshadowed T'Challa as a character. Killmonger is the one with the more interesting internal conflict, with the better story and character arc. When he revealed that his plan for being King of Wakanda involved an outlandishly moustache-twirling plan to overthrow the entire world one country at a time, I couldn't help but think this was shoe-horned in to make the audience side with T'Challa. If N'Jadaka only wanted to be King because it is what he always deserved (and "rightfully" won from T'Challa) then I think he would be too sympathetic. They had to be like "Oh, and he's basically Hitler, that's why he has to be stopped. Ignore everything else about his character and backstory, he's just Hitler now. He was Hilter the whole time, so don't care about his dad dying or his fucked up childhood or the betrayal or anything. Totes Hitler." The problem with T'Challa is that he spends most of the movie not really knowing what he wants to do. He's a passive, inactive protagonist until the very, very end of the film; I think the first decision he really makes that isn't completely obvious is right at the end, when he agrees to open Wakanda up to the rest of the world. Which is nice, but... until that point he made for a really boring character. For example, we start with an action scene where he fights the thinly-veiled Boko Haram guys, but the tension is diffused when we find out that he was only there to invite his girlfriend to his coronation; she was the one that was actually fighting Boko Haram. Okay. Then M'Baku decides to challenge him, and T'Challa has basically no choice but to accept. He decides to go after Klaue, but that's not really a difficult decision, nor does it really have anything to do with his own character arc; ultimately Klaue only serves to tie Agent Ross and Killmonger into the plot, then dies while T'Challa is off screen. Then Killmonger shows up and challenges T'Challa again. He kinda doesn't have a lot of options, so he accepts. This is not really T'Challa's action, it's Killmonger's; T'Challa merely reacts to an intrusion in his storyline. Then T'Challa is dead for a while, and is saved by other people. Then he chooses to fight back against Killmonger, but that's also kind of obvious. He finds out some stuff from his dad's spirit, but not because he took any actions or made any sacrifices for the opportunity to inquire. The opportunities just sort of happen to him, and when they do he's like "Oh hey yeah, while I'm here, what did you do and why again? P.S. you suck, Dad." He asks M'Baku for help, and that at least displays some character and a willingness to change the way Wakanda works. It's small, but I guess it's something. Big fight scene, he wins because he's the hero, and only then does he decide "Okay, let's open up Wakanda and help people." I'm not really even sure what it was in particular about the events in the story that helped him change his mind. I guess you could point to his disappointment with some of the decisions his father made, but I don't quite get how that necessarily translates into "Let's help other nations." If he felt he had a debt to repay to N'Jadaka, he could have funded it secretly. Maybe I'm dense, but I didn't really get it, or feel anything when he made that decision. I'm also with WK that the fight choreography was lackluster. I blame the Russo brothers and James Young for raising the bar maybe too high in Winter Soldier and Civil War. The long-take fight scene in the casino felt a bit cartoonish compared to what the same director (Ryan Coogler) accomplished in Creed. And the car chase scene in Korea had absolutely no tension in it: T'Challa is in a bulletproof suit, Shuri isn't even physically present, and Nakia and Ayo make a point of how they're in a bulletproof car (which Ayo crawls out of and still somehow doesn't get shot), which even falls neatly to pieces when it explodes without leaving so much as a scratch on either occupant. No bystanders are seen being shot or hit by debris, and everything ends happily. Oh. Okay. There was a little tension when Agent Ross was shot, but here comes Wakandan technology to save the day and he's fine. Oh. Okay. Then Agent Ross decided to risk his life to shoot down the last ship, but, oh... no, he got out, too. Okay. Oh no, Killmonger has Shuri beat because for some reason she neglected to build herself any kind of body armor, and T'Challa is too far away to save her! Is she going to die at the hands of the villain!? Oh, no.. I guess T'Challa got to her in time after all. Okay. I mean one of the Dora Milaje died. We never knew her name or saw her face much, and I don't think she had any spoken lines, but it's something? It signaled that people could die. It wasn't like a certain crew member of Serenity getting got, but it was something. In general there's too much telling and not enough showing. I especially would have liked to see more of Killmonger's life instead of just being told about his military career and whatever else made him decide to be Hitler. Lightning round of nitpicks: - Shuri spends WAY TOO MUCH TIME explaining how her gadgets - which will ALL DEFINITELY become important plot points later so pay attention audience - work. - In general, the technology was a bit much. Specifically the suit. If they're going to take so much time to explain some stuff, I shouldn't be left wondering "Wait, how does that work? Are they nanites? Is it invisible? Are they using Pym particles or does the suit just not weigh anything?" Either explain it or don't. - How does Shuri make this stuff? I never see her doing any actual work, she just sits at a desk and points to things that are already standing there, 100% completed. Do they 3D print these things? If so, why don't we ever see her designing anything on any kind of console? Is she literally the only person who runs this entire lab? There are no other scientists anywhere, developing anything? Is Wakanda actually technologically advanced or is it all just Shuri being a fucking wizard? - Why was the CIA buying vibranium from Klaue, and why is T'Challa okay with this? Why is the exchange taking place in a secret casino in Busan? Why did Klaue even need to sell anything for money when Ultron made him a billionaire in AoU? I guess he just enjoys it? He did seem to be having an awful lot of fun. - Klaue's laser arm is a Wakadan mining tool, okay... but where did he get the robot hand? If that was Wakandan, too, then why was the skin white? - I liked that T'Challa "saved" Zemo at the end of Civil War, and I loved his line "the living aren't done with you yet." I don't know why this didn't apply to Killmonger. Maybe he had more sympathy for him and let him die? I guess? - the rhinos were stupid. I said it.
|
|
|
Post by RidiculousNinja on Feb 23, 2018 17:57:23 GMT -5
Yes... I still enjoyed it ofcourse, but yes. Some of your points I'd like to comment on though. 1. Ritual Combat: Maybe nothing bad had ever come about do to this or maybe traditions are just that important to the Wakandan's afterall they still believe in blindly following a single entity as their government. Besides who doesn't like a good UFC match?
2. Didn't Forrest interfere in the combat? I doubt anyones aloud to interfere in ritual combat to the death.
3. Our introduction to Killmonger is.. him killing, theft, and taking a weird ass mask which serves no purpose at all. I think we saw a few screws loose before the big reveal. He even shot his girl...
4. T'challa is boring but he's Already been groomed to be leader his whole life so most of his decisions are things a smart leader will do. which yes is boring but fitting though maybe he could of had anger issues or something idk.
5. yeah fight scenes...
6. It was my assumption that the Lab Shuri works in is like the royal Lab and she doesn't seem like the type of person who likes to work with others or share.
7. Rhinos were dumb Just to be clear I agree just about everything you say but those are my thoughts.
|
|
|
Post by WildKnight on Feb 23, 2018 20:09:58 GMT -5
I saw it yesterday. It was okay. Kinda good, but kind of a mess if you're picky about film making (like I am). So, I'll start with what I liked: I like that they tried some new and bold things. They really went to town designing Wakanda, the clothes, the architecture, hair/makeup/accessories, etc. It was beautiful and I often found myself ignoring the actors so I could take in more of the details. I liked a lot of the performances. I especially enjoyed Florence Kasumba's Ayo, and Winston Duke's M'Baku; both were scene stealers. Andy Serkis was fantastic and I'm annoyed that Klaue is almost certainly dead. This might be the most I've ever enjoyed Michael B. Jordan since The Wire. I liked that the romance plot between T'Challa and Nakia was so relaxed. There was no forced tension or drama sparked by some kind of idiot ball plot, just two people who respect and admire one another very deeply doing their best to balance their passions in their lives with their passion for one another. It was a little boring, but refreshing. On to stuff that disappointed me: Almost every element of the plot and how it was/wasn't executed. More specifically, two big problems: 1. The real threat T'Challa must face is not Killmonger's history and desire for the throne, it's Wakanda's completely fucked-up method of choosing its King. Why the hell should a brief ritual combat on a waterfall determine who gets to be King of the most powerful nation on Earth?? The movie adequately demonstrates that this is a terrible idea. 2. Nobody seems to notice that it's a huuuuuuge problem, nor do they even briefly consider fixing it. As soon as Killmonger beats T'Challa, like 95% of Wakanda just goes "Okay, so we all now obey a total psychopath. Let's do everything he says, up to and including burning our own sacred heritage and murdering each other on his command." Dude even straight-up murdered Forest Whitaker, who wasn't even taking part in the challenge, and nobody did shit about it. Is that in the rules to Murderball? He's allowed to just stab anyone he wants? I don't understand this sport at all. Maybe you guys shouldn't be looking down on less technologically advanced nations.. I really cannot stress enough that the entire plot of the movie fails if the rules to Murderball aren't completely idiotic. And while I loved Killmonger, I feel like he severely overshadowed T'Challa as a character. Killmonger is the one with the more interesting internal conflict, with the better story and character arc. When he revealed that his plan for being King of Wakanda involved an outlandishly moustache-twirling plan to overthrow the entire world one country at a time, I couldn't help but think this was shoe-horned in to make the audience side with T'Challa. If N'Jadaka only wanted to be King because it is what he always deserved (and "rightfully" won from T'Challa) then I think he would be too sympathetic. They had to be like "Oh, and he's basically Hitler, that's why he has to be stopped. Ignore everything else about his character and backstory, he's just Hitler now. He was Hilter the whole time, so don't care about his dad dying or his fucked up childhood or the betrayal or anything. Totes Hitler." The problem with T'Challa is that he spends most of the movie not really knowing what he wants to do. He's a passive, inactive protagonist until the very, very end of the film; I think the first decision he really makes that isn't completely obvious is right at the end, when he agrees to open Wakanda up to the rest of the world. Which is nice, but... until that point he made for a really boring character. For example, we start with an action scene where he fights the thinly-veiled Boko Haram guys, but the tension is diffused when we find out that he was only there to invite his girlfriend to his coronation; she was the one that was actually fighting Boko Haram. Okay. Then M'Baku decides to challenge him, and T'Challa has basically no choice but to accept. He decides to go after Klaue, but that's not really a difficult decision, nor does it really have anything to do with his own character arc; ultimately Klaue only serves to tie Agent Ross and Killmonger into the plot, then dies while T'Challa is off screen. Then Killmonger shows up and challenges T'Challa again. He kinda doesn't have a lot of options, so he accepts. This is not really T'Challa's action, it's Killmonger's; T'Challa merely reacts to an intrusion in his storyline. Then T'Challa is dead for a while, and is saved by other people. Then he chooses to fight back against Killmonger, but that's also kind of obvious. He finds out some stuff from his dad's spirit, but not because he took any actions or made any sacrifices for the opportunity to inquire. The opportunities just sort of happen to him, and when they do he's like "Oh hey yeah, while I'm here, what did you do and why again? P.S. you suck, Dad." He asks M'Baku for help, and that at least displays some character and a willingness to change the way Wakanda works. It's small, but I guess it's something. Big fight scene, he wins because he's the hero, and only then does he decide "Okay, let's open up Wakanda and help people." I'm not really even sure what it was in particular about the events in the story that helped him change his mind. I guess you could point to his disappointment with some of the decisions his father made, but I don't quite get how that necessarily translates into "Let's help other nations." If he felt he had a debt to repay to N'Jadaka, he could have funded it secretly. Maybe I'm dense, but I didn't really get it, or feel anything when he made that decision. I'm also with WK that the fight choreography was lackluster. I blame the Russo brothers and James Young for raising the bar maybe too high in Winter Soldier and Civil War. The long-take fight scene in the casino felt a bit cartoonish compared to what the same director (Ryan Coogler) accomplished in Creed. And the car chase scene in Korea had absolutely no tension in it: T'Challa is in a bulletproof suit, Shuri isn't even physically present, and Nakia and Ayo make a point of how they're in a bulletproof car (which Ayo crawls out of and still somehow doesn't get shot), which even falls neatly to pieces when it explodes without leaving so much as a scratch on either occupant. No bystanders are seen being shot or hit by debris, and everything ends happily. Oh. Okay. There was a little tension when Agent Ross was shot, but here comes Wakandan technology to save the day and he's fine. Oh. Okay. Then Agent Ross decided to risk his life to shoot down the last ship, but, oh... no, he got out, too. Okay. Oh no, Killmonger has Shuri beat because for some reason she neglected to build herself any kind of body armor, and T'Challa is too far away to save her! Is she going to die at the hands of the villain!? Oh, no.. I guess T'Challa got to her in time after all. Okay. I mean one of the Dora Milaje died. We never knew her name or saw her face much, and I don't think she had any spoken lines, but it's something? It signaled that people could die. It wasn't like a certain crew member of Serenity getting got, but it was something. In general there's too much telling and not enough showing. I especially would have liked to see more of Killmonger's life instead of just being told about his military career and whatever else made him decide to be Hitler. Lightning round of nitpicks: - Shuri spends WAY TOO MUCH TIME explaining how her gadgets - which will ALL DEFINITELY become important plot points later so pay attention audience - work. - In general, the technology was a bit much. Specifically the suit. If they're going to take so much time to explain some stuff, I shouldn't be left wondering "Wait, how does that work? Are they nanites? Is it invisible? Are they using Pym particles or does the suit just not weigh anything?" Either explain it or don't. - How does Shuri make this stuff? I never see her doing any actual work, she just sits at a desk and points to things that are already standing there, 100% completed. Do they 3D print these things? If so, why don't we ever see her designing anything on any kind of console? Is she literally the only person who runs this entire lab? There are no other scientists anywhere, developing anything? Is Wakanda actually technologically advanced or is it all just Shuri being a fucking wizard? - Why was the CIA buying vibranium from Klaue, and why is T'Challa okay with this? Why is the exchange taking place in a secret casino in Busan? Why did Klaue even need to sell anything for money when Ultron made him a billionaire in AoU? I guess he just enjoys it? He did seem to be having an awful lot of fun. - Klaue's laser arm is a Wakadan mining tool, okay... but where did he get the robot hand? If that was Wakandan, too, then why was the skin white? - I liked that T'Challa "saved" Zemo at the end of Civil War, and I loved his line "the living aren't done with you yet." I don't know why this didn't apply to Killmonger. Maybe he had more sympathy for him and let him die? I guess? - the rhinos were stupid. I said it. Responses... I'm "ignoring" a whole bunch of your points because either I agree I agree but they don't really bother me (like Klaue's arm... you've got a point, but meh, whatever, its comic books)
1. Ritual Combat. Its comic books. I know, I know, but still... its comic books. While I personally agree that its a terrible idea, I disagree that the movie demonstrates this because... its a movie. Movies would suggest that any number of things are good ideas or bad ideas that are not necessarily good ideas or bad ideas. They work or don't work in movies because that's the way it was scripted. If the ritual combat had all worked out wonderfully, you wouldn't suggest that the movie demonstrated how great of an idea it was 8)
2. I had no problem with this because in real life, I see people reacting emotionally to situations and jumping on board with horrifically bad ideas all the time. Large numbers of people. MIB covered this as far as I'm concerned ("dumb, panicky animals...")
- Killmonger WAS cooler than T'Challa. T'Challa wasn't cool or interesting at all. This is not a refutation, just... I mean, whatever. For me, Klaue was more interesting than T'Challa. Okoye was definitely more interesting than T'Challa.
- Isn't that basically what every hero origin story is though? The character transitioning from a limited, often selfish worldview to a broader one? T'Challa makes a defining choice at the end. How is that different from, say, Stark in the first Iron Man? Initially he just wants to protect his own wealth and reputation and play with cool toys, but then he realizes that there is something bigger at stake...
(On a side note, IMO MOST super heroes are reactive rather than proactive, that's their nature. When they get proactive we start throwing around words like "anti-hero" and "gray area")
- I feel the tech was "a bit much" in another way. Specifically, that it felt like it was *too far* beyond the normal world's technology. Wakanda looked more like the alien world in Ragnarok than it did a place on Earth.
- Them not showing Shuri creating things really bothered you? I mean, we know she did...
- I assume T'Challa does care about the CIA buying vibranium but he realizes that some of it has leaked out into the world and he can't go grab it all back up. Presumably he knows its in Cap's shield, he made no effort to recover that...
- T'Challa honored Killmonger's request to be allowed to die. He offered to save him.
- The rhinos were SUPER stupid
|
|
|
Post by takewithfood on Feb 23, 2018 21:28:17 GMT -5
Yeah, I had to have the "Well, it's in the comics," discussion with a couple friends of mine that came to the movie with me, who are not comic book readers. But they gladly change all sorts of awkward things because they know they're awkward. Why not this?
To be clear, though, what I don't like is that the plot entirely hinges on the part of the ritual that is absolutely idiotic. And basically the entire second half of the movie wouldn't happen if it wasn't idiotic, and that's just terrible writing.
Like, imagine if comic book Superman had a rule where he doesn't fight bad guys on a Tuesday, and the entire plot of the next Superman movie involves Lex Luthor working out this pattern and exploiting it by only robbing banks on Tuesdays. That's a fucking stupid plot idea and would be a sore spot on even an otherwise enjoyable film.
"How is that different from, say, Stark in the first Iron Man?"
That might be the worst comparison you could have chosen. The first Iron Man has a fantastic character arc: At the start of the movie Tony is self-absorbed hedonist, but as soon as he is captured he faces his first decision: Build a weapon for the Ten Rings, or do some crazy engineer shit and break out. In the process of the breakout he has an epiphany that leads to an enormous decision: he holds a press conference to announce he's ending his weapons program, potentially costing him millions if not billions, alienating his partners and shareholders, and generally tanking the company his father built. And after that, when he sees the damage his existing weapons and the terrorists who have them are still doing in the world, he goes so far as to build the MkII, become iron man, and do something about it. Lastly, at the end of the film, Tony declines to go along with SHIELD's secret identity plan, and instead just blurts out that he's Iron Man in front of live TV cameras.
And yes, Tony is reacting to things happening in his life and I agree that in general movie villains are more proactive, while heroes react and save the day. But it isn't quite that black-and-white, especially in the MCU: Steve Rogers is pretty proactive about his quest to do his part to serve his nation in WWII, right out of the gate; he knows what he wants and risks life and limb to get it. Thor makes terribly regrettable decisions about confronting the frost giants, goes to great lengths to try to retrieve his hammer once he's banished to Earth, and after some personal growth, chooses to sacrifice his life to save a crappy little town. Even Scott Lang tries to go straight once he gets out of jail, but soon caves and joins his crew for a heist because he's intensely passionate about getting back into his daughter's life.
If T'Challa was the star of Iron Man instead of Tony Stark, he would have built a giant panther suit and escaped the cave, and then gone home and... been really unsure of what to do next. And then he'd see his weapons being used on innocent people by the same terrorists that captured him, and he'd... have a discussion with Rhodey about whether it's right for him to break the law and intercede. And then in the last 5 minutes of the film we'd see him decide "You know what? I AM going to do something to help!" and there'd be a little scene alluding to him starting to build the MkII, right before the credits roll.
T'Challa's story is so different because one of the main themes in his character arc in Black Panther is his indecision and lack of action: He doesn't know what kind of King he is going to be, nor what he wants to do with the throne now that he has it. This makes sense in that he became king rather unexpectedly when his father was assassinated, but "it makes sense" does not automatically translate to "it's entertaining."
And I'm not really sure what it was that happened to him in the story that helped him come to a decision about the outreach stuff. Did he see in N'Jadaka something about how hard peoples lives are outside of Wakanda? Because N'Jadaka didn't exactly have a typical life. His life wasn't necessarily shitty because he didn't grow up in Wakanda, it was shitty because T'Chaka killed his dad, left his body behind for N'Jadaka to find, offered absolutely no recompense. What was the moment, specifically, that helped him make up his mind?
I must stress: it's not the end of the world. It's not a bad movie, I enjoyed it. I can't help but liken it to Wonder Woman as a flawed, but endearing film that boldly took on the task of introducing audiences to a new and fantastic hidden world and largely succeeded. I found Diana to be a much more enjoyable and proactive hero, but I felt Black Panther had a deeper and more meaningful message to communicate.
|
|
|
Post by RidiculousNinja on Feb 23, 2018 21:41:31 GMT -5
How do I do that spoiler tab?
|
|
|
Post by WildKnight on Feb 23, 2018 21:43:24 GMT -5
Yeah, I had to have the "Well, it's in the comics," discussion with a couple friends of mine that came to the movie with me, who are not comic book readers. But they gladly change all sorts of awkward things because they know they're awkward. Why not this?
To be clear, though, what I don't like is that the plot entirely hinges on the part of the ritual that is absolutely idiotic. And basically the entire second half of the movie wouldn't happen if it wasn't idiotic, and that's just terrible writing.
Like, imagine if comic book Superman had a rule where he doesn't fight bad guys on a Tuesday, and the entire plot of the next Superman movie involves Lex Luthor working out this pattern and exploiting it by only robbing banks on Tuesdays. That's a fucking stupid plot idea and would be a sore spot on even an otherwise enjoyable film.
"How is that different from, say, Stark in the first Iron Man?"
That might be the worst comparison you could have chosen. The first Iron Man has a fantastic character arc: At the start of the movie Tony is self-absorbed hedonist, but as soon as he is captured he faces his first decision: Build a weapon for the Ten Rings, or do some crazy engineer shit and break out. In the process of the breakout he has an epiphany that leads to an enormous decision: he holds a press conference to announce he's ending his weapons program, potentially costing him millions if not billions, alienating his partners and shareholders, and generally tanking the company his father built. And after that, when he sees the damage his existing weapons and the terrorists who have them are still doing in the world, he goes so far as to build the MkII, become iron man, and do something about it. Lastly, at the end of the film, Tony declines to go along with SHIELD's secret identity plan, and instead just blurts out that he's Iron Man in front of live TV cameras.
And yes, Tony is reacting to things happening in his life and I agree that in general movie villains are more proactive, while heroes react and save the day. But it isn't quite that black-and-white, especially in the MCU: Steve Rogers is pretty proactive about his quest to do his part to serve his nation in WWII, right out of the gate; he knows what he wants and risks life and limb to get it. Thor makes terribly regrettable decisions about confronting the frost giants, goes to great lengths to try to retrieve his hammer once he's banished to Earth, and after some personal growth, chooses to sacrifice his life to save a crappy little town. Even Scott Lang tries to go straight once he gets out of jail, but soon caves and joins his crew for a heist because he's intensely passionate about getting back into his daughter's life.
If T'Challa was the star of Iron Man instead of Tony Stark, he would have built a giant panther suit and escaped the cave, and then gone home and... been really unsure of what to do next. And then he'd see his weapons being used on innocent people by the same terrorists that captured him, and he'd... have a discussion with Rhodey about whether it's right for him to break the law and intercede. And then in the last 5 minutes of the film we'd see him decide "You know what? I AM going to do something to help!" and there'd be a little scene alluding to him starting to build the MkII, right before the credits roll.
T'Challa's story is so different because one of the main themes in his character arc in Black Panther is his indecision and lack of action: He doesn't know what kind of King he is going to be, nor what he wants to do with the throne now that he has it. This makes sense in that he became king rather unexpectedly when his father was assassinated, but "it makes sense" does not automatically translate to "it's entertaining."
And I'm not really sure what it was that happened to him in the story that helped him come to a decision about the outreach stuff. Did he see in N'Jadaka something about how hard peoples lives are outside of Wakanda? Because N'Jadaka didn't exactly have a typical life. His life wasn't necessarily shitty because he didn't grow up in Wakanda, it was shitty because T'Chaka killed his dad, left his body behind for N'Jadaka to find, offered absolutely no recompense. What was the moment, specifically, that helped him make up his mind?
I must stress: it's not the end of the world. It's not a bad movie, I enjoyed it. I can't help but liken it to Wonder Woman as a flawed, but endearing film that boldly took on the task of introducing audiences to a new and fantastic hidden world and largely succeeded. I found Diana to be a much more enjoyable and proactive hero, but I felt Black Panther had a deeper and more meaningful message to communicate. I'm not sure you're entirely fair with the Stark/T'Challa comparison, some of what you say has a "from a certain point of view" element to it, but broadly speaking, I get where you're coming from (and it was an entertaining read regardless).
I could be wrong, but I think in the comics the "ritual combat" thing ONLY applies when its time to choose a new king, and isn't something that can happen at any time, which really is what bugged me about it in the movie. In the comics T'Challa had to fight his own Father to earn the mantle of the Black Panther. That sort of makes sense to me. Its not just about hereditary leadership, its about a very specific role that will require a certain level of physical prowess. I've never been a huge BP fan but to my understanding, after that the only times T'Challa had to defend his position with ritual combat was when there was some sort of issue about his leadership, not just every time someone showed up and said "Hey, I'd like to be king!"
I dunno, I guess in the end I love the idea of ritualized combat, so maybe it was easier for me to swallow the idea that he had to accept a challenge to become king. It seemed incredibly stupid that he had to accept any challenge that came along to stay king. Maybe that's arbitrary.
... and also some of the CGI was not that good.
|
|