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Post by lilithsboy on Oct 16, 2017 21:29:46 GMT -5
Please feel free to comment and constructively criticize I have been thinking about this for a while and this is my first attempt to actually put this to paper.
I feel this is one of the most misunderstood powers in MURPG while Sorcery gets a bad rap for saying you can do anything Hex Spheres has more or less the exact same wording, oh except it comes with free aoe, permanent duration, and can't be defended against as long as they can make the sphere big enough...... Yeah.
Okay first of Hexspheres are magic but they are chaos magic and the main user of said hex spheres (Scarlet Witch) had a ton of difficulty originally working with them so much so that Magneto enlisted the help of a human to train her. Hex Spheres should innately be difficult for all but the very best to control, now we can go about this one of two ways, every once in a while a GM can screw with Hex Spheres and make them not work/backfire or we can add rules to make it so that the GM does not feel like a tool and the player does not resent said GM for stealing their spotlight. I vote rules and seeing as this is my custom rule post my vote is the only one that matters currently.
Now one thing that has also irked a few people who I have talked to is the lack of effect stones, lacking those just how do you judge the strength of the effect and can they be used for damage? Well Wanda often uses her spheres destructively so yes they should be able to be used for damage and effect should follow the rules of all MURPG stones spent-resistance=damage/effect.
I purpose this:
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Hex-Sphere AN+3 Range 4
The character fires a bolt of psionic energy towards their target(s) if successful practically any desired effect can be achieved, please feel free to explain such effects in as dramatic and unusual fashion as desired. A character may also choose to use Hex-Spheres as part of a damaging attack this will work as a type of force blast. Hex-Sphere attacks go against defense normally and one may, of course, increase range, duration, area of effect, etc as per normal through spending more stones.
Chaotic backlash: Every time a character uses Hex Spheres they go against a number set by the GM (usually difficulty and in the case of attacking a person this is their energy regenerating stat+Magical resistance) each target adds to the backlash separately, they then remove a number equal to 1/2AN rounded down from this, should any remain they generate red stones of Chaotic Backlash. The character may hold their action for as many panels as desired to remove another 1/2AN rounded down per panel. A character without any means of knowing the future will not know if they are going to generate backlash. Once they decide to fire should any points of backlash remain the player puts red stones of backlash and a number of white stones equal to AN into a bag and pulls one. If a red stone is pulled the hex backfires in such a way as to hinder or even harm the caster and all backlash stones are cleared. If a backlash stone is not pulled then all backlash stones remain to be cleared at the same rate as provided above minus any points removed from further attempts at Hex Spheres. Backlash is checked before success is otherwise measured.
Example: Early in her career Wanda was annoyed enough with Toad to decide to teach him a lesson with An 4 Hex Spheres she decides to burst through his locked bedroom door. This is a difficulty 3. She goes for it and generates one backlash stone but with that only being 20% chance of backfire she succeeded. The next round she decides to deluge him with water, Toad apparently really needs a bath, since this is an attack against a character we use his energy generating stat 4+ magical resistance 0 for 2 stones of backlash but because she already removed 2 this time she does not clear that last one so with a 60% chance this is likely to fail and instead Wanda finds herself being attacked by bunny rabbits made of water (this was all in good fun and the GM decided not to be a jerk.)
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I took the idea to pull stones from Genetic Engineering and the holding on to the action to clear more backlash from Hex-Spheres itself. Hex-Spheres has always said you can define the action better by holding on for longer without really giving good parameters for each level of definition as such this gives mechanics to why a person will hold for longer and finally allows for a bit of reasoning behind the chaos. Also note that as a character gets stronger in Hex-Spheres they clear more and more backlash Wanda in the book has an AN9 she clears 4 backlash a turn and would have had no trouble with Toad much less the door now, but she has had far more practice at the point of that CAD than she had when she first joined the Brotherhood.
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Post by Neros on Oct 19, 2017 4:50:57 GMT -5
The wishy-washy-ness of Hex Sphere has also been something that has irritated me. There was so much left up to the GM. It is a very good idea with using a bag for the randomness. It will take some of the heat away from the GM. But it seems very complex just for one use of the power. Halving might work for genetic enginering because it isn't a combat power, so it is used during downtime or similar, where there isn't an eager player waiting for his turn to beat the bad guy. In my experience when it comes to rules, breaking them up a little makes it easier for readers to take them in. But this is how I understood your suggestion from reading it a couple times (correct me if I am wrong): I would suggest the instead to try and get rid of some of the math. But do you feel like the character's skill (Action Number) should play into lowering the risk? Remember, this is probably a main power and will be around AN 7 and few things have Abilities above 7 unless they are bosses and meant to be a real challenge. So at average, that will be a Difficulty around 3 - 4 (I think). ----------------------- I had also come up with something for Hex Spheres for the next version of 2.0, however it was more a small balance on some of the rules rather than a rework. But I may look at it again depending where this leads, cause the "stones-in-a-bag" thing is appealing
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Post by lilithsboy on Oct 19, 2017 10:01:35 GMT -5
I did notice something when I reviewed this. I intended stones of backfire to directly correlate with how powerful said backlash was, further removing GM blame. Meaning if you backfire and they have 4 stones then a 4 stone threat should go after you (or 4 smaller 1 stone threats like water bunnies). I did not say it and do apologize for that, this system is, after all, a means to give rules to the chaos while still keeping the feel of chaos alive we want to keep resentment from players to gm at a minimum with this power.
If you want to add any version of this modified or not to your 2.0 rules that will be more than fine with me you can keep what you like and discard the rest after all that is your system.
I am going to break this down using your list of numbers
1. The only time you do Dur/int/energy regen (for games that break them up) + MD is for characters otherwise you use the D/R difficulty for this (breaking doors mountains ect) . Other than that we seem to be saying the exact same thing because that is the difficulty I was comparing them to. Please note I wanted to use the difficulty for inanimate objects through this works closer to a resistance. It does not really matter if the power could not succeed (difficulty is simply too high) chaos was unleashed and might smack you down for the attempt.
2. Immediately after the boxes, you asked me this question: But do you feel like the character's skill (Action Number) should play into lowering the risk? I do, that is why you use 1/2AN here on mine. Please note that Hex Spheres may indeed be a character's main power but in it can also make for a great sidearm against other things. At lower AN Hex Spheres this system can be really punishing with my version (AN 1 cannot clear any backfire ever which could make for some good personal horror roleplay) Note that when you get up to 8AN (Wanda has 9) that you clear out 4 stones of backfire which is removing that average number you were talking about. Wanda in the comics seems to have a handle on her powers, if not her mental state, a system like this in the game could explain why, but if we do not cover AN then it is just one of those things that just evaporated into the ether.
3-5 is where our versions really diverge.
My intent was with enough focus a practitioner of chaos magic could clear all backfire (Wanda does not backfire almost ever anymore and let's face it she has done some really big stuff) In mine with enough time and focus backfire is reduced to 0. If even 1 stone of backfire is left then how much energy they put into it is then considered. (using Wanda again: She is in training and attacks Ironman's suit with a 3 point bolt that is going to generate 5-her 4 stones so she has a 25% chance of backfiring here (1r+3w spent)
If we use your system then if there is a chance of backfire it is going to be much higher using the same scenario is 50% chance because at this point stones spent are not considered we simply get 1 stone no matter how many reds are generated. That could get problematic quick let's look at Dr.Strange (who generates a whopping 14 points)
In this, she knows who her opponent is and really wants to get the point across so spends her full 9 and is going to wait for 2 turns to shoot (one does not beat Dr.Strange without careful planning). So she first goes 14-4-4-4 so 2 vs her full 9 she is about to release on the Good Dr. this is an 18% chance of backfire if she had waited for one more turn she would have negated backfire entirely.
In yours with this one she first does 14-9=5r then gets one w stone but adds 2 more for turns waited that is a 62.5% chance of backfire 1 more turn and it would have been a 55.5%. In 3 turns Wanda has only a 37.5% chance of success and it not going horribly wrong. This makes your version really unstable during boss fights which if that is the flavor you are going for then it works.
My second problem lies in turns of recovery when the character spends nothing in order to regen energy stones. My system passively removes 1/2AN every round while in yours they need to spend stones. Which means those 5r she just generated are waiting for her to do something else that is going to generate more red stones, sure she can wait 2 turns then spend 5 energy to dissipate the remaining chaos but that just means she wasted 2 more turns trying to recover from one blast.
Now as to having a lot of math that was in a way intentional Scarlet Witch was once explained as being able to affect anything by figuring out the probability of something and altering it.... In other words, I kinda gave a nod to that by doing this.... But the amount of math was not really changed with your system, sure they are constantly reducing 1/2AN but AN does not really fluctuate meaning this is a number the character will have on hand much like how much energy they generate per turn, if you consider this then math looks like this.
1. Figure out red stones (both systems seem exactly the same here) 2. Subtract (Mine 1/2 AN) (yours stones spent) 3. Leftover red generated 4. combine white with red (mine white spent) (yours 1) 5. Turns waited (mine 1/2 AN subtracted) (yours 1 white added) 6. Check for backfire.
The math really seems the same with both systems, particularly when you realize that Hexsperhs can be written like this in an action box.
Hex-Sphers 6 3/panel subtracted from backlash
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Post by lilithsboy on Oct 19, 2017 10:03:11 GMT -5
Side note how do you do those pretty box thingys? Being able to break stuff down like that would be much more visually appealing.
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Post by Neros on Oct 20, 2017 9:39:15 GMT -5
To make the text all neat and fancy, I select it and hit the "Quote" button to the right on the menu bar I just think that being able to remove the Backlash faster could be and nifty option. I really like it when a power that is based on a character isn't limited by that character. That it is just one version of it. Give it some options or a weaker version or a stronger one (Scarlet Witch was preeeetty nifty with her spheres in the end). Like Steal Superpower in the 2.0 file have been broken down so that a player that chooses it won't become Rogue but will be able to easier make it their own. Advantages can only go so fare. But I understand why you want it to be part of the base rules But yea, the math is pretty much the same. Even when halving, the numbers won't really change that much unless the GM gives lots of LoE • How long duration is the effects of this Hex Sphere? • Maybe add a rule that the player atleast has to spend an action when lowering the Backlash? Otherwise they can just wait until it is ready or spend both actions on being defensive. • What would you use instead of Magic Defense if a player wanted Hex Spheres but where it isn't magical?.
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Post by lilithsboy on Oct 20, 2017 12:20:48 GMT -5
Removing backlash faster or slower could be a great advantage/disadvantage. In fact, this was based off an earlier version of Scarlet Witch if memory serves she has pretty much done away with backlash entirely though that would be an advantage with a very significant cost. There are also other advantages to explore which would be fun AOE (my version does not come with this) free duration to stones spent, int bonus... basically, this goes from one of the most confusing powers in the game to something explainable and once you can explain it better you can customize it much better. While I did base this off of the Scarlet Witch and use her in my examples it is in no way tailor-made to her (my version simply can and will not account for "No More Mutants") she is convenient and I am more concerned with how I fell unleashing chaos magic would work. (I have more than one character who uses hex bolts one of which feels the need to incant a rhyme every time).
Duration is going to often be spent as per normal of course destruction of something is permanent I do however feel that backlash should get free duration stones equal to said backlash.
I do agree to spend the action (simply not the stones) to reduce backlash the character should be thinking about disappating the chaos at the very least otherwise they might screw it up and make it worse.
A nonmagic hex sphere would likely be a form of energy capable of reality alteration ergo I would suggest energy defense.
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Post by Neros on Oct 21, 2017 5:43:42 GMT -5
Not sure if a Intelligence bonus is a good idea since it will only really work on the first "attack" since its mechanic is tied into half of AN. Also, Hex Sphere isn't described as a "knowledge" based power. Must admit though, havn't read that much about Scarlet Witch, so I may be wrong ... "No More Mutants" could be an option with a cost of "At GM's discretion" XD One of the things I really disliked about Hex Spheres as well, was the aspect of being able to basicly insta kill people. I have written a suggestion for this in the next version of 2.0 (not released yet), which I think could work fine with this, unless you are fine with that part of Hex Sphere (I've cursived the text I am talking about): But so fare, it sounds like it might work out. But I would like some more info on how to exactly handle Backlash's. How do you use them exactly? Story: I had a player who wanted Hex Sphere, but it was a semi plant mastery, which could "super charge" spores in the air and surroundings, turning things into plant-themed things within seconds.
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Post by lilithsboy on Oct 21, 2017 9:12:25 GMT -5
When dealing with one hit powers I almost always go to 5minutes to stone of dmg, which is given in both witchcraft and sorcery as a duration for like effects. If they were to try to create instant death as in real death they would quickly start seeing social consequences and eventually be seen by authorities as a sort of villain.
And for your example, energy might not work out so at that point I would use physical toughness (how hard the body is to change directly correlates to how much the person is able to change them). Though with your given example Chaos is not being called upon I would probably work with the player and modify metamorphosis or something so that it could be used on others because backlash does not fit that scenario unless I am wrong.
Now the stones in the bag being pulled from are effect stones, all of them are going to get pulled and used. If they are red then basically a hidden force just used a hex sphere on whomever to attempt to create a worst-case scenario. The backlash will not always directly harm the caster sometimes it will help the opposing parties sometimes it might go after a friend of the caster, whatever it is there are 2 main rules 1. the caster won't like it. 2. it really should fit the scene as much as possible.
If you have questions about backlash please let me know I will try to answer them.
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Post by lilithsboy on Oct 22, 2017 0:41:12 GMT -5
I find it fun to deconstruct powers sometimes and I was thinking about your plant transformer most of the day I would actually suggest this for them.
Take transform other by touch (15w modifier and 15w=10) Now remove as modifier (-3=7) Next remove disables if any damage occurs (-5=2) Now remove only usable at close range (+1=3) Now you have Transform Other at +3An specifying plant matter as the object. (they still have to add to distance and now it will need to make it's own attack)
Transform other is not as powerful as Hex Sphere it can only turn things into plants, it also cannot directly damage things it has a duration of 1 hour before the spores lose their effect. It also does not call upon chaos so I personally feel backlash should not be used.
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Post by Neros on Oct 22, 2017 6:51:10 GMT -5
For Tranforming/deathWhat about the old “turn to stone and smash them”-trick? Its not instant death, but the person transformed is as good as dead. For Backlash
Hmm. Can’t the player just work around the backlash with high defense? Like if you got a 2-3 stone but you have a defense of 5 against magical/physical/energy effects. For Hex Plants
The idea with my player was that he liked the idea behind nature being very hard to control, which hex spheres was very good at simulating Also, this was way back before 2.0 even was a thing. So we ran by the book. But I must admit that if I ever had someone make that character again I would use Harmful touch in 2.0/transform other a little like you suggested. Maybe add more to the paralyzing touch option to give it a longer duration if the player wanted. But this is a liiiiittle off topic. This should be about hex spheres
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Post by lilithsboy on Oct 22, 2017 10:58:14 GMT -5
They would still suffer the exact same consequences as though they had just killed them outright. In fact the consequences could even be worse at that point, an argument could be made that in the heat of the moment they panicked and lost control/panicked and the person died accidentally, but if they transformed and smashed well that person was no threat since they were already subdued you did not just panic you are a cold-blooded killer we now have to arrest you.
Nope, who said the backlash is going to try and harm you? I am not going to bother attempting to use high defense lets see what we can do with that nice little modifier on pg 50 of X-Men (immunity to reality distortion) many superheroes are immune to their own powers so this fits and backlash cannot directly affect them ever.
See your teammate who is also your best friend.... Yeah.
Oh, wait you intended to turn that enemy to stone? Well, congratulations you did kinda you just gave him a stone body for a while now his strength, durability, toughness is now (backlash stones stronger).
You intended to cause them to spontaneously combust? Well, you accidentally summoned a fire demon instead (use summoning chart to make a monster at Backlash stones) that fire demon is pissed that you did not go about it correctly and you do not know it's binding factors even if you have summoning.
That is the thing Backlash causes something bad to happen but that bad thing is pure chaos manifesting it is just as varied and powerful as a full-fledged hex bolt, if not a bit more so. It should probably fit the situation but who is to say it has to? Spontaneous combustion might cause a plant monster to appear, Stone body might just summon a duplicate from the future who has been thinking about this battle wishing he had a second chance and has a plan..... Feel free to be creative, particularly if the stone count is high recklessness in such a character should be punished.
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Post by Neros on Oct 24, 2017 4:31:52 GMT -5
For Transforming/death It is more that I don't think it should be to easy/cheap to do such a thing. If the only thin that "balanced" this aspect of the power was morale, then it would be a very nasty power since morale for villains can be in the more sadistic area.
I am looking at other "Instant Hamper/death" powers, and they seem like they should be around +5 CL. Throwing in the risk of the Backlash and the suggestion to prepare helps and could bring it down to the usual +3 CL. But that, in my head, depends entirely on how easy it will be to instantly stop an opponent. If you go with the "Even if one stone get through", I would suggest pumping it up to +4.
For Backlash I am just afraid that Backlash would be very weak since I imagene that most effects will be around 1-4 stones worth of effect. Which isn't allot when many have a recovery attribute of 3+. Many neat things on the D&R chart though is around 4-5, so at that point it seems to fit.
Or by this, do you mean the Backlash effect is as strong as your AN if it happens?
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Post by lilithsboy on Oct 24, 2017 14:55:34 GMT -5
Control others +2, Sorcery +2, Witchcraft +2, Asgardian Sorcery +2 and those are just a few of the ones that can instadeath, Instahamper is even easier.
The fact is that morality is the only things stopping most heroes, the majority of villains simply don't do these things because it does not work with their particular plans. Are you telling me Loki, Enchantress, Baron Mordo, Selene, Dormammu, Shuma Gorath ect ect ect could not just as easily do any of this? Of course they could but it does not make for a good story so Villians should not, and if it is players playing villains then occasionally sure they might be allowed to do this but if they try every time then figure out a way to smack them down because such tactics may be fun once in a while but a player stealing the spotlight every time is not going to be fun.
If you really do not want this to happen then go ahead let them transform the target, Hex Spheres never work exactly as intended, you did turn him to stone, pure vibranium ore. Okay, you turned them into a rat or rather hundreds you have the feeling that if one survives then the person will come back fully formed, they all panic and run off in different directions (etc). Backlash it meant to give the power flavor it is not intended to be the only thing that might go wrong when using the power.
It kind of comes down to knowing your players if you have a player who is going to exploit something like that then I would suggest not letting them play it, because it will not be fun for others to be around that person.
What I am suggesting is already a severe nerf to how the power has worked in the past, I am suggesting having a chance to fail built in and then having to go through defense Hex Bolts as it stands needs to simply be big enough (I have a character with hex bolt 3 he can take out Dr.Strange, who has a 8 stone resistance to magic with a 2 stone bolt because defense is simply not considered only the size of the target).
Now as to Backlash being weak.
It kinda is supposed to be the point is not to cause this power to never be used but to put some flavor in there to make it used more cautiously than it is. Most backlashes will be the 1 or 2 stone variety, but remember a character will not know what the potential backlash will be, if you throw in a character with an innately high resistance to magic then all of a sudden things can go bad quick. Also, circumstance modifiers will work on backlash say they try to break in somewhere which is magically warded (chaos magic has never played nice with other magic) I would likely suggest 2 maybe 3x potential backlashes for that, and this is just a few suggestions GM's have as much leeway as they want.
But like I said this is not to punish players for selecting Hex bolts but rather to make the power more fun to play most backlashes will be of the minor annoyance variety (1 or 2 stones of something bad happening) enough to get the characters to groan at the caster and maybe get them minorly reprimanded for lack of control, World Eating Demonic Dragons Made out of Pizza may of course come about but they should be an exception, not a rule.
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Post by Neros on Oct 25, 2017 15:43:40 GMT -5
True, if compared to the magical actions in the books, then it is kinda overpriced. I never liked the magical actions though, since you could do so much with it and it costs so little.
But the "If it fitz, it warpz" rule was pretty bad. As you basically say, nothing could withstand it as long as the sphere was big enough. So changing it to a more classical format is very welcome.
Can't think of anything to ask at the moment. Been some long, tirering days lately -_-'
But I would like to see a complete, cleaned up writing of the suggestion. Been doing allot of talking, so I am not sure of what the "final product" will look like.
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Post by lilithsboy on Oct 26, 2017 0:28:31 GMT -5
Hex Spheres AN+3 The character is capable of firing bolts of reality warping chaos magic.
Invoking chaos potentially comes at a price known as backlash which is determined by adding together: -The energy regeneration Ability+ Magical Resistance per each character targeted. -The difficulty of is being attempted via the D&R chart of each task being attempted that does not target a character. -Any modifiers which the GM deems appropriate.
Before being told the total for backlash a player has the option of specifying the number of rounds to hold their action during this time the character will be actively removing excess chaos as they do. A player may at any time stop hold their action to do something else but the turns are wasted. Once the bolt is fired:
-Take the total number of backlash stones and subtract 1/2 AN per turn spent on the action. - Put stones spent on the action and remaining stones of backlash into a bag and draw one. - If a backlash stone is pulled then an effect similar to that of a hex sphere of strength equivalent to the number of backlash stones happens, this will be an effect specifically intended to hinder the caster, though it in no way has to affect them directly. -if a Hex Sphere stone is pulled then Hex is allowed to work normally, all remaining backlash stones stay and are added to the next attempt. - A character may spend an action to remove 1/2 AN stones of remaining backlash per turn (and yes the character does know the running total for this)
Hex Spheres can damage as a force blast might they may also have any number of dramatic effects the player can imagine and the character can generate power for. The character may, of course, increase duration, area of effect etc as per normal through use of stones.
Note: A character describes what they want to happen that does not mean they always get what they want chaos may take liberties with whatever is asked for so long as it fits the exact wording of the request.
Rules for action box: - Variable-range chaotic energy attack - Range 4 - Remove backlash at 1/2an per pannel spent - Split stones for multiple targets - Must describe action - Stones vs Defense+Magical resistance - insert options
Special Options (suggestions still) -Innate sense of backlash+2 The character has a feel for the flow of chaos around them and others they can sense how much time it would take them to safely remove any residual chaos such players are told the backlash amount before they decide on how many turns to hold.
-Full AN removal of backlash +2
- 1/4 AN removal of backlash -1
- No removal of backlash -3 (note the character at no point will be allowed to remove backlash it will even follow them through stories and into next chapters backlash is inevitable)
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