New Modifier: Civilization

[Manah]

Soooo... I was playing Civilization 6. And it's awesome. But as I did... I got to thinking that perhaps the use of Wealth and Resources, while more than enough for most characters of great wealth and/or owners of large companies, was perhaps not enough to represent the actual rulers of entire nations, like Doctor Doom, Black Panther, Black Bolt, Lilandra, Magneto and so on. The resources, wealth and power of an entire country, an entire civilization, should not be underestimated; heck, even the Wealth of a 'small nation' is MN 9 on the D&R chart. So I thought that perhaps the wealth/resources/political power axis needed one last angle. So I thougt:

NEW MODIFIERS

Civilization
CL = MN+3

DESCRIPTION
The character actually stands as the leader of an entire nation, people, or civilization. Whether they are duly elected, the latest ruler of a monarchy, the immortal leader who actually created the civilization in ancient times, or a religious guide recognized as the one in charge, they are in charge, can make decisions, can direct the resources' usage, and can make military decisions for the entire nation, making them powerful indeed and major players in the world.

In order to even buy Civilization, one must have both Wealth and Resources of at least 2/3 their Civilization MN, so to be the ruler of an MN 9 Civilization, one must have Wealth and Resources at least at 6. The MN of the modifier represents the upper limits of the civilization's available level of Discoveries/Features, although not all are necessarily available from the beginning. The table below has a 'Scientific Actions AN Required' section representing the need for an experienced enough authority in a given field. For example, at MN 5, Steam Power can be known/discovered, but the presence of a technological engineer with at least Technology 1 is required. It needs not be the actual leader who has the Modifier, but the person must be a loyal friend/ally of the leader, such as a contact via one's Resources, or perhaps a hired professional, who managed to help the leader's civilization develop and establish the discovery. Same would go for Opera and Ballet; if a given civilization has not access to a person with at least 1 in the Perform action (or similar), then discovery of Opera and Ballet is impossible at that stage. Likewise, a given Civilization might be at the Modern age in most areas of knowledge, but having barely discovered Military Science of the Industrial Era due to a more pacifistic nature. Still, usually technologies and advancements tend to not be much more far behind than a single era due to how discoveries tend to be interconnected.

Note that Civilizations are not always happy with their leadership, and their like or dislike of a given leader will likely vary with said leader's actions and reactions to events involving the civilization. Starting with the establishment of a Code of Laws and a ruling body, Civilizations can have various Governments, as mentioned below:

• Chiefdom (Requires Civilization at MN 1 and the development of a Code of Laws; simply represents an autonomous political unit comprising a number of villages under the permanent control of a chief/leader. The oldest form of government; the best and strongest leads, others follow.)
  
• Autocracy (Requires Cvilization at MN 2; power is vested in the hands of a single person, with no legal restraints or political oversight (nor common sense, at times). Absolute monarchs and military dictators being fine examples. The biggest advantages being that decisions can be made a lot faster, since there is little need for bureaucracy; when the leader tells you to do it, you do it. The problem is that usually, such governments are prone to instability and distrust.)
  
• Classical Republic (Requires Civilization at MN 2; power rests in selected individuals who represent the citizenry and rule in accordance to the laws as embodied in a constitution.)
  
• Oligarchy (Requires Civilization at MN 2; 'ruled by the few'. Whether distinguished via family ties, religious or military prestige, personal achievements or others attributes, the oligarchs decide the political agenda and make decisions for the good of the people. Farily effective, but have a tendency to become tyrannical.)
• Merchant Republic (Requires Civilization at MN 4; power is held by a small number of wealthy merchants/traders who are usually led by a doge/mayor, whose main goal is to increase their nation's wealth and mercantile/trading power, focusing on tariffs, custom duties and financial matters, sometimes at the cost of other interests.)
• Monarchy (Requires Civilization at MN 3; sovereignty is vested in a single individual; King, Queen, Prince, Emperor, whatever; who rules until abdication or death - sometimes both - and whose successor is usually determined by heredity and/or lineage. Three types of monarchies exist: absolute monarchy, with no restraints on the wielding of power; constitutional monarchy, where power may be more or less limited by law, and electoral monarchy, where the leader must be elected usually by some form of special convocation.)
• Theocracy (Requires Civilization at MN 3; a government where a given deity or pantheon is the immediate authority, usually personified by a human representative who interprets the 'Word' for the common folk. Most theocraties' leaders have a connection to God, such as Moses, Muhammed or the Pope; but some others are 'quasi-theocracies', where the leader is a demi-god or claims divine commission to rule, such as Gilgamesh in Sumerian lore.)
• Communism (Requires Civilization at MN 6; a socio-economic system of government built upon the common ownership of production, shorn of class, money, the state apparatus, and most other markers of capitalism. Seen as the extreme form of socialism. Very good and just in theory, often turns out corrupt and inefficient in practice, causing paranoia and massive - and expensive - military complexes.)
• Democracy (Requires Civilization at MN 6; the people are involved in making policy decisions, either directly or through elected representatives. If the elections are fair, the system ensures civil liberties, active participation, human rights, feedom of speech, political expression and belief, a rule of law, and freedom of the press. While all of these sound wonderful, they might lead to discord, instability, apathy, paralysis and violence in the face of national challenges. Can lead to artisctic and scientific creativity, economic abundance and cultural benefits, as long as bureaucracy doesn't overwhelm the society's individuals. Has both flaws and benefits, but is the most enduring form of government in history.)
• Fascism (Requires Civilization at MN 6; known as authoritatian nationalism, fascism is marked by militarism, nationalism, modernism, repression and opposition to Communism. Fascists governments embody totalitarianism, in which the state seeks to control all aspects of pricate and public affairs. Ruthlessly efficient in times of unrest and in the organization of national resources, bringing stability and security to the people, but often leading to violent, cruel results and the loss of many social advantages and liberties as well as the wealth other cultures can bring.)

MN	ERA	SCIENTIFIC ACTIONS AN REQUIRED	DISCOVERIES/FEATURES
1	Ancient	N/A	Pottery, Animal Husbandry, Mining, Sailing, Astrology, Irrigation, Writing, Archery, Masonry, Bronze Working, Wheel, Code of Laws, Craftsmanship, Foreign Trade, Military Tradition, State Workforce, Mysticism
2	Classical	N/A	Celestial Navigation, Currency, Horseback Riding, Iron Working, Shipbuilding, Mathematics, Construction, Engineering, Games and Recreation, Political Philosophy, Drama and Poetry, Military Training, Defensive Tactics, Recorded History, Theology
3	Medieval	N/A	Military Tactics, Apprenticeship, Stirrups, Machinery, Education, Military Engineering, Castles, Naval Tradition, Feudalism, Civil Service, Mercenaries, Medieval Faires, Guilds, Divine Right
4	Renaissance	N/A	Cartography, Mass Production, Banking, Gunpowder, Printing, Square Rigging, Astronomy, Metal Casting, Siege Tactics, Exploration, Humanism, Diplomatic Service, Reformed Church, Mercantilism, The Enlightenment
5	Industrial	1	Industrialization, Scientific Theory, Ballistics, Military Science, Steam Power, Sanitation, Economics, Rifling, Colonialism, Civil Engineering, Nationalism, Opera and Ballet, Natural History, Urbanization, Scorched Earth
6	Modern	2	Flight, Replaceable Parts, Steel, Electricity, Radio, Chemistry, Combustion, Conservation, Mass Media, Mobilization, Capitalism, Ideology, Nuclear Program, Suffrage, Totalitarianism, Class Struggle
7	Atomic	3	Advanced Flight, Rocketry, Advanced Ballistics, Combined Arms, Plastics, Computers, Nuclear Fission, Synthetic Materials, Cultural Heritage, Cold War, Professional Sports, Rapid Deployment, Space Race
8	Information	4	Telecommunications, Satellites, Guidance Systems, Lasers, Composites, Stealth Technology, Robotics, Nuclear Fission, Nanotechnology, Globaliztion, Social Media, Future Civics
9	Fusion	5	Unexpendable Energy, Advanced Space Exploration, Star System Colonization, Truly Worldwide Internet, Megacorporations, Advanced Genetics, Advanced Robotics, Human Cloning, Early Gravity Technology, Spaceships, Cybernetics
10	Gravity	6	Advanced Gravity Technology, Mass Reactors, Induction Engines, Early Energy Weapons, Early Power Armor/Mecha Technology, Early Colonization of Other Star Systems, Alien(s) First Contact, Extraplanetary Information Networks, Advanced Cybernetics, Advanced Cloning
11	Energy	7	Advanced Miniaturization, Force Fields, Advanced Energy Weapons, Starfighters, Advanced Power Armor/Mecha Technology, Self-Sustained Space Stations, Androids, Early Unification of Humankind, Early Universal Liberty, Rights and Equality; Humankind/Alien Interstellar Alliances
12	Subatomic	8	Early Unlimited Matter Creation, Time Travel, Folding Space Travel, Fully Independent A.I, Disease Immunity, Physical Properties Control, Physical Immortality, Unification of Humankind, Universal Liberty, Rights and Equality, Human/A.I Relations, Elimination of Money and Material Needs
13+	Dimensional	9+	Unlimited Matter, Energy, Space and Time Creation and Manipulation, Dimensional Travel

OPTIONS

• Civilization Size (-3 to +8 CL, Read further; Without buying this option at all, the nation is a small yet still significant one. For example, Wakanda would qualify. At -1, the nation is quite tiny, such as Latveria. -2 would mean either a couple of cities at most or a large one, whereas -3 is a nascent civilization in its earliest stages of size, being a large town/small city with its own government. +1 would be medium sized country, such as France or the UK. +2 would allow for a large one such as China. +3 would mean a massive civilization such as the United States or Russia. +4 means the civilization covers most if not all of a single planet. +5 would be for an entire Star System. +6 would cover a civilization going as far as the Galaxy. +7 means a universal civilization, and +8 would be reserved for a multidimensional one.)
• World Wonder (+2; allows the civilization to build a 'Wonder', meaning a special building which contributes to the growth, renown, wealth, power and achievements of a given civilization, such as the Big Ben, the Colosseum, the Forbidden City, the Hanging Gardens of Babylon, and so on. The leader is encouraged to think of something original and depending on their resources, powers and so on, may even go beyond the limitations of a simple building if the GM allows. Whatever the Wonder is, it provides a permanent +1 bonus to the Wealth (and Resources, if they have it) of all of the civilization's members, provides a +1 sitmod to all actions performed for patriotic reasons against enemies/rivals of the civilization who do not, themselves, have a Wonder, and helps with diplomacy and tourism since people would come from far away to witness such a wonder. This option may be bought more than once, up to once per 3 MNs, rounded up; each time building a new Wonder.)
• Relic (+1 or +2 CL; At MN 7 or higher for a cost of +1 CL, or +2 CL for lower rank MNs, a given civilization may create a given artifact/relic/technology/invention of historical/legendary/epic importance, depending on the civilization's available technology, geniuses, power and resources. Examples could include the Ark of the Covenant, the Holy Grail, the Spear of Longinus, the Philosopher's Stone, the Turn-X Gundam, the Dragon Balls, KOS-MOS, and so on. The player is encouraged to be original in what they would like to create, just as the GM is encouraged to be open-minded. The created relic should be powerful, unique and renowned, though not necessarily of unlimited power or almighty, although it might get damn close depending on the available resources of a given civilization.)
• Military Might (-2 to +3 CL; while not taking this option at all means the civilization has basic military forces of an adequate rank for a nation of its size, taking it a -1 means its military might is limited, possibly due to a more pacifistic mentality. -2 means a complete absence of military might. +1 means a strongly militaristic civilization, with active military service for most able-bodied adults up to a certain age. +2 means a society focused on war above all, and capable of much more destruction than its size would suggest. +3 means that other spheres of society than military are actually repressed and discouraged in exchange for more military might, which might very well weaken the nation in other domains, but make it terrifying in times of war - which it tends to bring about on its own since it is its main reason of existing.)
• Great People (+1 to +2 CL; a civilization with this option has allowed formidable individuals to flourish and stand out from the common folk, distinguishing themselves from others to contribute to the success of their society. At +1, half this modifier's MN, rounded up, of such individuals will appear, and join their genius/skills/talents to those of the leader when necessary in exchange for support, or out of fear in the case of more tyrannical governments (though this leads to far less loyalty). At +2, as many as MN great people will join. GM has the final word on the capabilities of such people, but the player is encouraged to make suggestions. Usually includes great scientists, musicians, philosophers, artists, engineers, etc.)
• Unique Warfare Unit (+1 CL; allows a civilization to create their own, unique military unit that is unique to said civilization, such as German U-Boats, the Greek Hoplites, Japanese Samurai, the Roman Legionnaires, Spanish Conquistadores and the English Redcoats. Again, the GM has the final word, but the player is encouraged to come up with something original. This option may be bought multiple times, and previous choices may be updated when the civilization's technology level increases so much as to render the unit obsolete.)
• Unique Infrastructure (+1 CL; allows a civilization to create a new, unique infrastructure for their cities that serve a given, specific purpose and might increase the popularity, effectiveness and/or versatility of said society. Examples include Sumerian Ziggurats, the Egyptian Sphynx and Pyramids, the Great Wall of China, the Roman Baths or the Greek Acropolis. Again, the GM has the final word, but the player is encouraged to come up with something original. This option may be bought multiple times, and previous choices may be updated when the civilization's technology level increases so much as to render the infrastructure obsolete.)
• High Loyalty (+1 CL; the majority of the population highly supports the decisions of their government either due to unusual charisma, being treated well for years, being manipulated like puppets, or something other. Either way, few people rebel or dissent, and civilians rarely raise an objection in fear of the judgment of others.)
• Civil Unrest (-1 CL; pretty much the opposite of the former option. Few people agree with or like the government, causing many to rise in opposition or rebel against their decisions, causing much trouble and anger among the people and for their leaders.)

COMMENTS
True leadership of an actual civilization, a level of influence far exceeding the limitations of the Wealth and Resources modifiers, but working well in hand with both. Allows one to truly rule over a nation they will truly make their own over time.

Rules for Modifier Box

• Represents the character's leadership of an entire nation/country/civilization.
• Must have both Wealth and Resources of at least 2/3 their Civilization MN
• (Insert Government type with short description)
• (Insert Era of Discoveries with short description if necessary)
• (Insert options)

[Manah]

EXAMPLES'R'US

Civilization (Latveria): 8 (35w)
-Autocracy (Ruled over by Doctor Doom)
-Fusion Era
-Civilization Size (-1; tiny nation)
-Military Might (+1; due to its advanced technology, many soldiers and countless robots in addition to Doom's own might, the nation is considered a superpower.)
-Unique Warfare Units (+2; Doom Guards: Highly trained soldiers using Doom's technology to protect Latveria and battle its enemies. Doombots: Robotics duplicates of Doctor Doom equipped with highly advanced technology and near indistinguishable from the original.)
-High Loyalty (+1)

[Manah]

...Also want to add options related to Religion and Law. Not sure what yet.

[Neros]

There is allot of text in one area, so it would be nice with a little air between it to make it easier to get through.

I like the attempt at trying to give some mechanics to having your own civilization, but it sounds like spending allot of stones on limits, "flavor" and very little "hard" bonus' (like with Wealth which is very loose in how it works).

What I mean, I am not exactly sure what you can do with this modifier that you wouldn't be able to be simulated by having other actions, since much of what you get from running a "typical" nation is rather low on the power scale or very much just flavor. If the nation then is a very strong nation in an area, you could just increase the action or give it other options.

• All of them would have a "Doesn't work when not in nation" disadvantage
• A couple could maybe take the "Takes Time" disadvantage as well
• Armies could be Summoning with some tweaks and options
• Access to high tech could be Inventing but you are not the inventor
• Your great wealth would be because you have a prosperous nation
• Having hundreds if not thousand of subjects being dependent on your every action and decision would be a challenge

Have you thought about how diplomacy may limit the use of this modifier?

You could still use your table to check at what scientific level the nation would be, and some of the options could still be used for the actions.

[Manah]

Jul 24, 2018 3:37:53 GMT -5 Neros said:

There is allot of text in one area, so it would be nice with a little air between it to make it easier to get through.

That's true. I was attempting to mimic the books' displays, which always writes the descriptions in one full block. I guess there's no harm in spacing it a bit, thanks.

I like the attempt at trying to give some mechanics to having your own civilization, but it sounds like spending allot of stones on limits, "flavor" and very little "hard" bonus' (like with Wealth which is very loose in how it works).

What I mean, I am not exactly sure what you can do with this modifier that you wouldn't be able to be simulated by having other actions, since much of what you get from running a "typical" nation is rather low on the power scale or very much just flavor. If the nation then is a very strong nation in an area, you could just increase the action or give it other options.

Here, I have to respectfully yet absolutely disagree. The hard bonus is having thousands, hundreds of thousands, millions, or more people, including likely hundreds of specialists, experts and geniuses, very strong individuals, amazing artists, skilled warriors, and depending on the setting, possibly mutants, mages and whatnot (speaking of which, this gives me an idea for another option for the modifier), who are all in general willing and ready to help out the leader of their nation if they but ask, or in exchange of some compensation. It's having access to countless resources, materials, minerals that your nation mine, technology that your nation developed, weapons that your nation invented, knowledge that your nation discovered. It's having the weight of an entire nation behind you when making decisions that might affect the world around you. If you're a powerful guy in power armor and you make a threat to a planet, it's very likely they'll look at you and laugh. If you make that same threat and you have five Star Systems, a dozen fleets of starships and millions of men backing you up, they will likely cower in terror at the thought of opposing you. And in game terms, you have lots, and lots of people ready to spend a truckload of stones that you would never have in so short a notice in actions that you might not even have. If that's not a hard bonus, I don't know what is.

Heck, I even made a comparison earlier. I gave this modifier to one of my characters, Darth Sidon, who's part Sith Lord and part Chapter Master of his own Space Marines Chapter from Warhammer 40k, and it ended up costing 100w. Then I thought 'that sounds like way too expensive', so I compared it to buying Power Cosmic (which I like to think of as the basic Reality Alteration power), with Area Effect and Int.bonus, and see how high an AN I'd get. CL = AN+13, +3 for Area Effect, +5 from Int.bonus meaning... AN 6. Or AN 8 in my own house rules, since in them buying an Ability bonus is +3, not +5. So... for the same cost, you get a - very, I'll grant you - versatile action with an Area of 8.... 1,500 feet... versus having a (still extremely) quite versatile modifier that can literally affect dozens of entire planets at once, with countless super soldiers in power armor and genetically modified who can perform countless actions with their own energy while... you're not even there. After I realized the difference here, the cost seems... very fair.

So... no, I'm sorry, but I don't agree. There are lots of possibilities and advantages here if you ask me, and I don't think that even a single stone spent in this is wasted on flavor. It's just that flavor happens to come along with it as part of the package deal.

• All of them would have a "Doesn't work when not in nation" disadvantage
• A couple could maybe take the "Takes Time" disadvantage as well
• Armies could be Summoning with some tweaks and options
• Access to high tech could be Inventing but you are not the inventor
• Your great wealth would be because you have a prosperous nation
• Having hundreds if not thousand of subjects being dependent on your every action and decision would be a challenge

Now, while this here is another way to do things - and no means is perfect nor the only acceptable choice - I don't like it (again, no offense, just personal preferences here). To me that's about the same as telling a player they should buy Photographic Memory with a -1 CL for 'Not working without computer, a smartphone or a camera to take pictures of what they want to remember' or a 'Enhanced Senses' 5 (Know what time it is) with a -1 for requiring a watch or a clock, or buying a Speed of 5 with a -1 for requiring a car. It's external to the character, has nothing to do with their own capabilities, and as such has no place on their CAD aside perhaps as a footnote on their Equipment to mention that they do, in fact, have access to said device.

Using a bunch of actions to reflect the effects of this 'civilization rulership' overcomplicates something that should be a lot simpler on a CAD, and in the end is not really that advantageous. To get even close to the possible capabilities of the above Modifier using that method, one would use so many options it would likely cost even more, take up a lot more space on the CAD - for skills and powers the character themselves do not have and as such in my opinion have nothing to do on the CAD - and even then would never reach the actual potential of having an entire country backing you up, for you will never be able to put out as many stones on anything as hundreds of thousands of people can.

So yeah, I guess you could do it like that, but I see it as limiting, possibly even more expensive for what it's supposed to do, and likely to never reach the actual potential that this modifier is supposed to have, and so I dislike doing it in such a manner... and like Wealth and Resources, I think Civilization should be a Modifier whose mere presence is enough to indicate the possibilities available at a glance, as opposed to having to read through each and every action the character has to make sure that they do actually have it or if it's the nation itself that does.

EDIT: As a side note, as for the 'Having hundreds if not thousand of subjects being dependent on your every action and decision would be a challenge', agreed, but I would not include it in the Modifier itself, because not all leaders actually take their leadership seriously. If a leader spends most of his time having fun, sleeping and going on shopping sprees all the time, they are... still a leader. A bad one. But hey, many corrupt kings barely gave a damn about what happened to their kingdoms as long as they had money, food and fun themselves, so yeah. I'll leave it to the specific character/player to decide whether they are a good leader - and do take such a challenge to reflect it - or one who doesn't really allow his responsibilities to weigh him down in whatever else he pursues, rather leaving said responsibilities in the hands of others... which may open the door to a lot of corruption, trouble... or shift of allegiances if the person actually taking care of the country proves to be effective and popular.

Have you thought about how diplomacy may limit the use of this modifier?

Not yet, but I'm trying to think of more details to include in it. However, at its very basis, I think that's possibly more the matter of a GM doing his job well than a need to modify the modifier itself, just like how Wealth does not necessarily means you carry the whole amount on you or how Resources doesn't mean your combat team can magically appear by your side to help you, they still have to be told an order and move to the appropriate location to do it. In Civilization's case, yes you do have access to said potential, but depending on how you do things, you might become more or less popular, lose or gain the trust of your followers, etc. In the Civilization games, sometimes unhappiness in a nation might lead to revolts, which the character then has to bring to an end by either military action, diplomacy, changes in his leadership or a mix of all three. Heck, it might even be a basis for adventures just while handling such disputes.

I understand your points, and thanks for sharing them, but they are mostly an entirely different method to do what I'm trying to accomplish here, a method I'm not a big fan of for the reasons mentioned above. As far as I'm concerned, this modifier is the way to go, so I'm looking to improve it and make it better as opposed to changing it for basic actions with options to reflect the fact that they're not your capabilities but the country's. If they're not yours, IMO, they are not supposed to be on your CAD. ^_^

[Neros]

No offense taken, and I hope you don’t take offense with the suggestions.

Just a note: I am very wary and careful around “power packs”. Those pesky power that you get allot out by paying less stones if bought seperatly.. I am looking at you Ninja X(

What I meant when I said “hard bonus", I meant a tangible mechanical effect. Something where you can see/feel what it will do and how other things will be affected by it.
.... A note on that, I am not a fan of the Wealth modifier btw, which is very loose and basically sais: “screw the rules, I have money”

With your example (not sure what his Intelligence was, but I am guessing it is above 2), he would be able to perform reality changing effects of 8+ every minute or so. Cities, armies and science can't really do much against that kind of thing.

MURPG doesn’t do minor things well at all. It is made to be big and grand. A phone would definitely be a minor thing. Having a nation do your bidding is not. I generally follow a thing in Chronicle of Darkness called "The Sanctity of Merits", which I guess would be "The Sanctity of Stones" here.
I am not sure if you know about it, but it basically means: if a player have used their points/payed for something, don't mess with it without their consent. This can wary though. I have experienced games where the GM did this and it was fine. Mostly because I trusted that specific GM and that he would use it to improve the story. But I have also had a GM that did it just to take things away from the player.

But it is fun you think I am over complicating it because I feel the same about trying to come up with something that already can be simulated with what is already there.
I am not gonna stop you from doing it. There is no real point in trying. This is your idea and I just hope you will see it as suggestions and attempts to help. Not "Do it like this".

But a thing I just noticed: What is Resources? I am guessing it is a house rule.

Jul 24, 2018 10:01:53 GMT -5 Manah said:

I understand your points, and thanks for sharing them, but they are mostly an entirely different method to do what I'm trying to accomplish here, a method I'm not a big fan of for the reasons mentioned above. As far as I'm concerned, this modifier is the way to go, so I'm looking to improve it and make it better as opposed to changing it for basic actions with options to reflect the fact that they're not your capabilities but the country's. If they're not yours, IMO, they are not supposed to be on your CAD. ^_^

Which is why I won't suggest anymore outrageous changes. Maybe some tweaks, but that is hopefully it. I do have some questions though about it to get a better feel if it is priced right.

Jul 24, 2018 10:01:53 GMT -5 Manah said:

The hard bonus is having thousands, hundreds of thousands, millions, or more people, including likely hundreds of specialists, experts and geniuses, very strong individuals, amazing artists, skilled warriors, and depending on the setting, possibly mutants, mages and whatnot (speaking of which, this gives me an idea for another option for the modifier), who are all in general willing and ready to help out the leader of their nation if they but ask, or in exchange of some compensation. It's having access to countless resources, materials, minerals that your nation mine, technology that your nation developed, weapons that your nation invented, knowledge that your nation discovered. It's having the weight of an entire nation behind you when making decisions that might affect the world around you. If you're a powerful guy in power armor and you make a threat to a planet, it's very likely they'll look at you and laugh. If you make that same threat and you have five Star Systems, a dozen fleets of starships and millions of men backing you up, they will likely cower in terror at the thought of opposing you. And in game terms, you have lots, and lots of people ready to spend a truckload of stones that you would never have in so short a notice in actions that you might not even have. If that's not a hard bonus, I don't know what is.

With how you have described it, it kinda sound like a “if you have this you can do anything”.

• How is it different from Inventing?
• What mechanical benefits are there to having thousands of civilians under you?
• How does having an army work?
• How quickly can the army be assembled/ready?
• How strong would the army at the various levels?
• Does the actions of the ruler and its people affect each other? Like if the ruler went: "this person whom have helped me is a hero, but he is seen as a villain by the people" and how would this affect how the character could access the modifier?
• How does this modifier interact with other actions like a area of effect 6 blast? Do you lose aspects of the modifier when your city/army is gone?
• It feels like this modifier would replace Wealth completely?

A suggested: Some options could just have a flat stone cost instead of an increase in costlevel. Especially those that only grant smaller benifits that are not really affected by how high the Modifier Number is.

[Manah]

This is turning into quite the discussion, lol. Alright, here we go. XD

Jul 25, 2018 8:36:42 GMT -5 Neros said:

No offense taken, and I hope you don’t take offense with the suggestions.

Nah, it's fine. I apologize if I seem close-minded in regards to changing the way I do things; I wouldn't do it like this in the first place if I didn't like it better.

Just a note: I am very wary and careful around “power packs”. Those pesky power that you get allot out by paying less stones if bought seperatly.. I am looking at you Ninja X(

Fine by me, but at the same time, I'm not a fan of using ten actions/modifiers when one could do the trick. Sometimes, a power pack is necessary for some things, whereas Ninja is not as much necessary as a clear 'we wanted to give twelve actions to some characters, but oops we made a dumb 9 action boxes limit rule so now we're stuck' kind of deal. (As you can guess - or know already - I am strongly opposed to the 9 actions limit rule, which is nothing short of an abomination in my eyes. XD) While I do agree that Power Packs for no reason are not a good idea, I do believe that there are indeed reasons for it and it's perfectly appropriate here. Also, it doesn't seem like a Power Pack to me. It means you have access to a lot of people who respect you and generally are helpful to you, and there's likely going to be some people in there who can do a bunch of things, because... they're people.

What I meant when I said “hard bonus", I meant a tangible mechanical effect. Something where you can see/feel what it will do and how other things will be affected by it.
.... A note on that, I am not a fan of the Wealth modifier btw, which is very loose and basically sais: “screw the rules, I have money”

I see. Well, as far as I'm concerned, I like Wealth well enough. I feel like there are clear and definite limits as to what one can do with it, but also that being rich is not a do-all end-all kind of benefit. Items over a certain level of power must still be bought with stones, and sure you can buy a lot, but you still have to find someone who has what you want and is willing to sell, and it has the inherent flaw of drawing enemies and rivals like a fire draws moths. So it's fine as far as I'm concerned. But hey, opinions. I think we're too conditioned to think that Wealth equals power in games like DnD, but I don't feel at all that it applies in MURPG. It's just 'some form of power', like any other. Is it that much better than a guy with Telepathy AN 5 with Project Thought/Control others who can essentially get what they want from 85% of the planet without even paying for it? ...I don't think so. It's good, sure, but it doesn't feel OP to me.

With your example (not sure what his Intelligence was, but I am guessing it is above 2), he would be able to perform reality changing effects of 8+ every minute or so. Cities, armies and science can't really do much against that kind of thing.

In the real world, maybe. In Marvel, I can think of many ways to still stop the guy. You'd have to have a much higher AN to be anything close to unstoppable. And in comparison to my 100 stones civilization, it still doesn't feel like much.

MURPG doesn’t do minor things well at all. It is made to be big and grand. A phone would definitely be a minor thing. Having a nation do your bidding is not. I generally follow a thing in Chronicle of Darkness called "The Sanctity of Merits", which I guess would be "The Sanctity of Stones" here.
I am not sure if you know about it, but it basically means: if a player have used their points/payed for something, don't mess with it without their consent. This can wary though. I have experienced games where the GM did this and it was fine. Mostly because I trusted that specific GM and that he would use it to improve the story. But I have also had a GM that did it just to take things away from the player.

Agreed, and I never take anything from my players unfairly. But there being a risk to lose anything is still part of the game, and the players should know it. I've seen GMs go the other way around and literally go around every situation where a player would die, thus making dying... not a concern. To me, death should not be a concern... to people with Reconstitute Self. Not anyone else. Same goes for resources, powers, anything really. There is always a chance the player will lose it, but I will never take it away cheaply, or without a chance to stop it, or without a chance to recover it. Be fair, but don't give everything on a silver platter. Otherwise nothing has any meaning.

But it is fun you think I am over complicating it because I feel the same about trying to come up with something that already can be simulated with what is already there.
I am not gonna stop you from doing it. There is no real point in trying. This is your idea and I just hope you will see it as suggestions and attempts to help. Not "Do it like this".

When I said you were overcomplicating things, I did not mean it to say 'It's simpler to create a modifier than not create one'. I meant 'it's simpler to have one modifier that says it all on a CAD than six actions with seven options each that says most of it'.

Like I said, there is no perfect way to do things. Your suggestion works too. It's just not how I do it. I mean, you could do that with everything really. Just remove all Actions entirely and just put in Abilities, period. Now, instead of Computers, Technology, Inventing, Genetic Engineering and so on, you just put stones in Intelligence. Instead of Acrobatics, Swimming, Wall-climbing, just use Agility. Why make an action for it since it can already be simulated with what is already there?

And yeah, I know, I'm overexagerrating a bit. But that's my point nonetheless. Sometimes the basics are not enough. As far as I'm concerned, if something is different enough that you need to add 7 options to six different actions to even begin to get results the likes you would get from it, then there's probably a need for a new action/modifier.

You'll notice I will create a LOT of actions for things that could be done with the basic rules here in the Manah-Tan Project. I mean, what's the Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan from Naruto, if not Telepathy, Mastery of Fire and Metamorphosis with a truckload of options?

...That's true, but if you leave it open and without guidelines like this and you put together a Naruto game, and let's say you have four players who want to have the EMS... since you made no such guideline, you'll end up with four CADs with EMS which each work drastically different. I don't like that. If you have the same power but at different levels of mastery, then it should be the same power at different levels of mastery, not vastly different powers who just happen to have been built with the same core actions - if even that! So yeah, I still create certain packages when I feel that it's necessary. And as far as I'm concerned, Civilization is one such necessity.

But a thing I just noticed: What is Resources? I am guessing it is a house rule.

I'm not sure who originally created it; I saw it on Rowlet's game, who himself took it from Andrew's game. You can find it on this page here, about 1/3 down:

murpg.proboards.com/thread/18736/lups-house-rules

Which is why I won't suggest anymore outrageous changes. Maybe some tweaks, but that is hopefully it. I do have some questions though about it to get a better feel if it is priced right.

Suggestions are welcome, lol. Not saying I'll say yes to all, but I'm glad to hear/discuss other viewpoints.

With how you have described it, it kinda sound like a “if you have this you can do anything”.

Well, you sounded like you saw no use in it, so I was trying to put it in a more positive light. Yet, you seem to be forgetting how much you would be paying for those advantages. I sure hope that for such a cost, you do are getting some bang for your buck! Think about it. To get Civilization at 9 (no option), you pay 9+3 CL = 12 CL, or 25w... but you also have to pay 2/3 the AN in Wealth and Resources, or 6, for a total of 4w and 9w respectively. So you'd be paying a total of 38w. You can't do everything with it, but I think it's only fair for it to do a truckload of things, if you ask me.

• How is it different from Inventing?

You don't need to ask your Inventing action if it has time to work for you, and if you act like a jerk to your Inventing action, it will never flat out refuse to help. Nor will it rise against you if you ignore its - nonexistent - requests. However, your Inventing action cannot work for you on its own regardless of how nice you ask. Also your Inventing action will never make you a cup of coffee, and it will not even care to respond to you when you say its name.

• What mechanical benefits are there to having thousands of civilians under you?

I answered this already. The fact that they can put out countless more stones in a given time than you could alone.

• How does having an army work?

Depending on your civilization's level of technology, size and whether or not you took the option Military Might, you have a given number of troops, with a certain level of technology (and thus weapons and vehicles as appropriate) who may or may not be very well trained depending on how your nation works, who ultimately answer to the character since he/she is essentially the leader of their nation, unless they selected a Supreme Commander to handle the war duties or something.

• How quickly can the army be assembled/ready?

Depends on how your country organizes things. Where are your soldiers? Do you have bases? Do you have vehicles? How fast are they? How high is your MN, 3? 7? 13? It can mobilize pretty darn fast if they can teleport, and pretty slow if all they have is camels and they don't have military bases to start from in an organized manner.

• How strong would the army at the various levels?

Same as previous question. Depends on a bunch of things. Are you a more militaristic nation? Do you establish strict and extensive training regiments? Do you provide your army with top of the rank gear and weaponry? Are you a pacifist who hates war and only has an army for internal peacekeeping? Etc.

• Does the actions of the ruler and its people affect each other? Like if the ruler went: "this person whom have helped me is a hero, but he is seen as a villain by the people" and how would this affect how the character could access the modifier?

Yes, absolutely. But if the ruler is a good leader and is loved by the people, he may very well be in the perfect place to change that. Informing the people of the hero's deeds, publicly speaking in his favor, and so on. And of course, the other way around is true. Say someone is spreading misinformation about the ruler in his country while he is away for six months. It's very possible that when he comes back, there is a lot of unrest, and he has to set things right. Both can affect the other.

• How does this modifier interact with other actions like a area of effect 6 blast? Do you lose aspects of the modifier when your city/army is gone?

It depends. It could, for example, slow expansion. If the ruler acts like an ass and doesn't care, he might lose loyalty and popularity. If he acts with compassion and works hard to bring the one responsible to justice, and to make sure it doesn't happen again, it might actually benefit him. Again, it depends.

• It feels like this modifier would replace Wealth completely?

Disagreed. Just because you're a martial artist doesn't mean you're a sniper, and just because you're a civilization leader doesn't mean you're wealthy. The wealth of your nation technically should be used for your nation, and if you use it all the time for your own personal fun, you'll see your approval ratings plummet to the depths of hell. XD Sure, Wealth and political power often go hand in hand, which is why I made Wealth of 2/3 the Civilization AN a prerequisite, but it's not the same at all. Heck, if a player asked me if he could take Civilization with a +1 CL for not requiring Wealth and explain it as 'I'm very charismatic and popular, but don't have a coin to my name. I got elected nonetheless, but if it wasn't for my job, I'd be on the streets.' And I'd say 'okay, sure'.

A suggested: Some options could just have a flat stone cost instead of an increase in costlevel. Especially those that only grant smaller benifits that are not really affected by how high the Modifier Number is.

I'll keep that in mind, but so far none of the options I added would qualify as 'small benefits' if you ask me, as long as the creator has a bit of imagination. For example, creating a new military unit only has to do with the MN in regards to what technology they have available to them... but if the player using it - let's say in Medieval times - suggests a crude zeppelin equipped with explosive black powder barrels, it's still a very strong advantage regardless of how low the MN of the modifier is. So I'd still rule it as a +1.

To be honest, I don't think many options would be insignificant enough to warrant anything less than a +1 CL. But we'll see.

[Neros]

Getting late here... Maybe I should just go to bed instead....... Naaah, Im not that tired.....

I am strongly opposed to the 9 actions limit rule, which is nothing short of an abomination in my eyes. XD)

I think they did it because of the limiting paper.. Or the design they had chosen.. Or their gods demanded it... Or a typo.... There could be many reasons to why they would limit it to only 9.. But they shouldn't have
And yea, some packs could work, but Ninja is just horrible. Statecraft i can accept since it is basically Leadership with a special +1 bonus if the target is your subject, along with General Knowledge and Social Skills when it comes to running a nation.

I feel like there are clear and definite limits as to what one can do with it, but also that being rich is not a do-all end-all kind of benefit. Items over a certain level of power must still be bought with stones, and sure you can buy a lot, but you still have to find someone who has what you want and is willing to sell, and it has the inherent flaw of drawing enemies and rivals like a fire draws moths

I do not feel so. Or at least not when looking at the Wealth as written because again, it doesn't not give any examples or methods of how it should work. If a price of an item matches your Wealth, you can get it. That seems very powerful when looking at a comic book universe.

And about Telepathy, I would say that it is less better. We are talking about a +2 Action. It better be more usefull/flexible than Wealth.

In the real world, maybe. In Marvel, I can think of many ways to still stop the guy. You'd have to have a much higher AN to be anything close to unstoppable. And in comparison to my 100 stones civilization, it still doesn't feel like much.

Well, I am not talking about being unstoppable (or not my intention to). I think it is more the image in my head of a person with such power who decides to attack the country and would be able to cripple it rather quickly. Within minutes. Unless his plans are found out somehow. This part however can go so many ways. It was just an image I had in my head and wondered how it mechanically would be handled.

Agreed, and I never take anything from my players unfairly. But there being a risk to lose anything is still part of the game, and the players should know it. I've seen GMs go the other way around and literally go around every situation where a player would die, thus making dying... not a concern. To me, death should not be a concern... to people with Reconstitute Self. Not anyone else. Same goes for resources, powers, anything really. There is always a chance the player will lose it, but I will never take it away cheaply, or without a chance to stop it, or without a chance to recover it. Be fair, but don't give everything on a silver platter. Otherwise nothing has any meaning

Agreed.

You'll notice I will create a LOT of actions for things that could be done with the basic rules here in the Manah-Tan Project. I mean, what's the Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan from Naruto, if not Telepathy, Mastery of Fire and Metamorphosis with a truckload of options?

Naruto? Oh thats easy.. Just throw in some Ninja and add a Mastery of Chakra.. Everything in Naruto is chakra after all 

...That's true, but if you leave it open and without guidelines like this and you put together a Naruto game, and let's say you have four players who want to have the EMS... since you made no such guideline, you'll end up with four CADs with EMS which each work drastically different. I don't like that. If you have the same power but at different levels of mastery, then it should be the same power at different levels of mastery, not vastly different powers who just happen to have been built with the same core actions - if even that! So yeah, I still create certain packages when I feel that it's necessary. And as far as I'm concerned, Civilization is one such necessity.

I understand this, but I do like this method, especially if the players want the same thing. It is why I like if a power has a very basic way of working to begin with, and then allot of options to it.
It allows people to have the same power but where each can be good at different aspects of it.

It is one of the reasons I find Close Combat and Range Combat a little boring since it is very hard to make it feel different from others.
On a note, this is not an attempt to make you change your mind. This is us talking about preference.

Well, you sounded like you saw no use in it, so I was trying to put it in a more positive light. Yet, you seem to be forgetting how much you would be paying for those advantages. I sure hope that for such a cost, you do are getting some bang for your buck! Think about it. To get Civilization at 9 (no option), you pay 9+3 CL = 12 CL, or 25w... but you also have to pay 2/3 the AN in Wealth and Resources, or 6, for a total of 4w and 9w respectively. So you'd be paying a total of 38w. You can't do everything with it, but I think it's only fair for it to do a truckload of things, if you ask me.

I did, but that is because i was imagining a normal nation. So at the low levels, it is useless. But it is mostly because I can't "see" in my head how it works mechanically. There is no stone vs stone examples, no Difficulty or Resistance to equal or beat.

So to me with your examples in the high end, the player is completely free to define what the nation can do, as long as it is within the Modifier Number. And at the low end, it feels like that kind of rulership has no place among superheroes, aliens and gods.

You don't need to ask your Inventing action if it has time to work for you, and if you act like a jerk to your Inventing action, it will never flat out refuse to help. Nor will it rise against you if you ignore its - nonexistent - requests. However, your Inventing action cannot work for you on its own regardless of how nice you ask. Also your Inventing action will never make you a cup of coffee, and it will not even care to respond to you when you say its name.

If it works exactly like Inventing, but better, I think the base price should at least be a little higher than Inventing, especially since it does more than just invent things.

I answered this already. The fact that they can put out countless more stones in a given time than you could alone.

So the populace grants free stones from the general pool? How many? How often? For what? You make it sound like each and everyone of them will add free stones, in which case I would say a +3 is not enough.

Depending on your civilization's level of technology, size and whether or not you took the option Military Might, you have a given number of troops, with a certain level of technology (and thus weapons and vehicles as appropriate) who may or may not be very well trained depending on how your nation works, who ultimately answer to the character since he/she is essentially the leader of their nation, unless they selected a Supreme Commander to handle the war duties or something.

Depends on how your country organizes things. Where are your soldiers? Do you have bases? Do you have vehicles? How fast are they? How high is your MN, 3? 7? 13? It can mobilize pretty darn fast if they can teleport, and pretty slow if all they have is camels and they don't have military bases to start from in an organized manner.

Same as previous question. Depends on a bunch of things. Are you a more militaristic nation? Do you establish strict and extensive training regiments? Do you provide your army with top of the rank gear and weaponry? Are you a pacifist who hates war and only has an army for internal peacekeeping? Etc.

So if high enough, the player can completly free to define it as having bases all over the nation, teleportation vehicles, highly durable mech suits and powerful artillery that can hit planets?

just because you're a civilization leader doesn't mean you're wealthy. The wealth of your nation technically should be used for your nation, and if you use it all the time for your own personal fun, you'll see your approval ratings plummet to the depths of hell.

Don't you have to be rich to be a civilization leader with the limit on this modifier? So why would you ever dig into the nations treasury
Actually, how high is the nation's Wealth rating with this Modifier?

[Manah]

Jul 25, 2018 16:10:24 GMT -5 Neros said:

And yea, some packs could work, but Ninja is just horrible. Statecraft i can accept since it is basically Leadership with a special +1 bonus if the target is your subject, along with General Knowledge and Social Skills when it comes to running a nation.

I... feel like I'm friggin' blind. For years I though Statecraft was a composite action including Social Skills, Business and Leadership all in one, and I didn't even know about that +1 bonus you mentioned. And now re-reading it I see none of that. What the hell, me?

I do not feel so. Or at least not when looking at the Wealth as written because again, it doesn't not give any examples or methods of how it should work. If a price of an item matches your Wealth, you can get it. That seems very powerful when looking at a comic book universe.

Actually, yes, it gives examples and methods. In the X-Men guide, P.93, lower right, and then top left the page after. Everything that could be bought in the real world could theoretically be bought with money, anything else costs character stones. After the game starts, the GM is free to assign monetary values to out of the norm items, but even then, if you look at the suggested costs, they are pretty ridiculous ($100,000 for a 1r value item, $1 million for a 1w item), so it's not like anyone can afford it easy. Also, you have to keep in mind the golden rule; reason, logic and common sense. Just because the book doesn't say outright that the item should be available and for sale before a player can buy it doesn't mean you don't have the right as a GM to make it a factor. I think this is, like many things here, a matter of opinion. You may think it's overpowered or not clearly defined enough, but I thik it's fair for the price and well-defined. Opinions, opinions.

And about Telepathy, I would say that it is less better. We are talking about a +2 Action. It better be more usefull/flexible than Wealth.

I know. And in comparison, +0 CL for Wealth seems fair to me considering the applications of Telepathy in comparison to it.

Well, I am not talking about being unstoppable (or not my intention to). I think it is more the image in my head of a person with such power who decides to attack the country and would be able to cripple it rather quickly. Within minutes. Unless his plans are found out somehow. This part however can go so many ways. It was just an image I had in my head and wondered how it mechanically would be handled.

Again, as far as I'm concerned, I can think of many people in Marvel who would stop said guy in an instant. Say, Charles Xavier for example. And he's not the only one, so even if he targeted him first, he'd still likely get defeated. Now sure, we're talking supers here, but if it was an MN 12 civilization, it'd be even easier to stop him, Xavier or not.

Naruto? Oh thats easy.. Just throw in some Ninja and add a Mastery of Chakra.. Everything in Naruto is chakra after all 

Yeah, no, not for me. Definitely not. XD

I understand this, but I do like this method, especially if the players want the same thing. It is why I like if a power has a very basic way of working to begin with, and then allot of options to it.
It allows people to have the same power but where each can be good at different aspects of it.

That's the thing. To me, doing it the way you suggest ends up making it absolutely not at all the same power in the end. That's precisely why I dislike it. It's not a mastery of an element, it's a specific power, with specific results and specific effects, generally with specific durations and ranges. Not a Mastery at all, since a Mastery is essentially 'here, customize however you please'. It's two different worlds.

It is one of the reasons I find Close Combat and Range Combat a little boring since it is very hard to make it feel different from others.
On a note, this is not an attempt to make you change your mind. This is us talking about preference.

I know, lol. Same. I think it's clear at this point that we'll just have to agree to disagree on a lot of points here.

I did, but that is because i was imagining a normal nation. So at the low levels, it is useless. But it is mostly because I can't "see" in my head how it works mechanically. There is no stone vs stone examples, no Difficulty or Resistance to equal or beat.

Nor is there for Adamantium Skeleton, Photographic Memory, Immortality, Immovability (in the core rules anyway), Prescience, Self-Contained Lifeform, Transform Self by touch, Transform others by touch, the Invulnerabilities, Precognitive Flashes, Reconstitute Self, Translation, Cosmic Awareness, Destiny Force, Inter-Dimensional Travel, Transform Self/Possession... do you have a problem with those as well? ...Some powers are just, 'you have it or you don't'. It does not always have to be stones VS stones, or D&R related. Sometimes, you just don't get old. Sometimes you just don't stay dead. Sometimes you rule over a country.

So to me with your examples in the high end, the player is completely free to define what the nation can do, as long as it is within the Modifier Number. And at the low end, it feels like that kind of rulership has no place among superheroes, aliens and gods.

Within the limits, and with the GM's approval. Remember my mention of reason, common sense and logic? Still applies here.

If it works exactly like Inventing, but better, I think the base price should at least be a little higher than Inventing, especially since it does more than just invent things.

I never said it worked like Inventing. In fact, I was being humorous in my answer to try to point out how completely different the two are. So no, the costs should not have anything to do with one another. Also, if you calculate it like this, you are completely ignoring the many disadvantages Civilization has compared to Inventing, namely you not having the skill yourself, having to deal with others to get things done, having to maintain good relationships with your people to make sure they actually want to work for you, Inventing only has one action requirement as opposed to the two here (including one at CL = MN+2), etcetera, etcetera. It is not Inventing, it has little to do directly with it, and it should not be compared to it in terms of price.

So the populace grants free stones from the general pool? How many? How often? For what? You make it sound like each and everyone of them will add free stones, in which case I would say a +3 is not enough.

I never said that. I said they can use their own stones. You know how you have your own stones and your cousin Bob has his own stones, so you can both spend them to do whatever you both please on whatever you each are doing? Well, if you both decide to spend them to deliver pizzas, you will devliver pizzas faster and more efficiently. I never said the stones are added to your actions: they are not your actions. Hence why I said they have nothing to do on your CAD in the first place. You are simply asking an NPC who has the action to do a job for you with their own Action, their own stones, that have nothing to do with yours at all and in any way. It's not a bonus, it's not a sitmod. The modifier simply means you might know someone who might do the job if you're a good leader, ask nice enough, pay well and/or provide him with what he wants often enough to get him to want to help you. It has, I repeat, nothing to do with your own actions. Niet. Nada. Zilch. Zip.

So if high enough, the player can completly free to define it as having bases all over the nation, teleportation vehicles, highly durable mech suits and powerful artillery that can hit planets?

...Reason, common sense, logic.

Don't you have to be rich to be a civilization leader with the limit on this modifier? So why would you ever dig into the nations treasury

Like I said on the last post. Normally yes. But if a player suggest paying a +1 CL on it to negate said need in order to be poor and be a leader as long as they have a good reason for it, I would allow it.

Actually, how high is the nation's Wealth rating with this Modifier?

If you read the D&R chart in the main book, a 'small nation' is considered to have Wealth 9, so I decided it wasn't worth considering with absolute precision. The GM looks at their level of available technology, the size of the land they control, the resources they may have, and if it makes sense that they could afford such or such, the GM allows such or such. If a small nation has Wealth 9, then there are likely few limits as to what a huge nation could get. For example, the U.S currently have a net work of 123.8 trillions. So you know, whatevs. Again. Reason, common sense, logic.

[Neros]

Jul 25, 2018 17:39:42 GMT -5 Manah said:

I... feel like I'm friggin' blind. For years I though Statecraft was a composite action including Social Skills, Business and Leadership all in one, and I didn't even know about that +1 bonus you mentioned. And now re-reading it I see none of that. What the hell, me?

It happens allot to me to. There are so many things I have forgotten from the book due to it only being read once, or not really leaving that big an impression on me, or good old father time 

But Statecraft does have those things to an extent. The Action gives you specialities, and as long as they relate to running a country, the Action can be used. Many social and business specialties could apply to running a country. Negotiation, bargaining, talking people down, etc. But this might be me interpreting the rules in a different way. There is allot of that in going around in MURPG

Actually, yes, it gives examples and methods. In the X-Men guide, P.93, lower right, and then top left the page after. Everything that could be bought in the real world could theoretically be bought with money, anything else costs character stones. After the game starts, the GM is free to assign monetary values to out of the norm items, but even then, if you look at the suggested costs, they are pretty ridiculous ($100,000 for a 1r value item, $1 million for a 1w item), so it's not like anyone can afford it easy. Also, you have to keep in mind the golden rule; reason, logic and common sense. Just because the book doesn't say outright that the item should be available and for sale before a player can buy it doesn't mean you don't have the right as a GM to make it a factor. I think this is, like many things here, a matter of opinion. You may think it's overpowered or not clearly defined enough, but I thik it's fair for the price and well-defined. Opinions, opinions.

Reason, logic and common sense? Humbug.. All that modern fancy-pantsy stuff.. Back in my day we had to use our bare fists to get what we wanted out of our GM
But thanks for pointing that out. Its been so long since I went through the whole book, but now that you point it out to me, I remember seeing this at some point and must have completely forgotten about it.

I know, lol. Same. I think it's clear at this point that we'll just have to agree to disagree on a lot of points here.

Agreed

Nor is there for Adamantium Skeleton, Photographic Memory, Immortality, Immovability (in the core rules anyway), Prescience, Self-Contained Lifeform, Transform Self by touch, Transform others by touch, the Invulnerabilities, Precognitive Flashes, Reconstitute Self, Translation, Cosmic Awareness, Destiny Force, Inter-Dimensional Travel, Transform Self/Possession... do you have a problem with those as well? ...Some powers are just, 'you have it or you don't'. It does not always have to be stones VS stones, or D&R related. Sometimes, you just don't get old. Sometimes you just don't stay dead. Sometimes you rule over a country.

Yea, allot of powers don't need it, but mostly because they are very simple in what they do. But as a power becomes more complex, I feel that more clear mechanics and guidelines are needed. Otherwise the whole thing becomes a "it is up to the GM if you can use this at all" or never comes into play. Like Adamantium skeleton. I have never seen it being taken because it costs 3w and what it does never really becomes a problem i my experience in MURPG. It mentions broken bones and such, but I have never seen that do anything in play. Damage is damage. It mentions some durability increases, but you still have to pay for that.

But, I can better imagine what impact/worth your Modifier would have on a game, than some of the things that are in the core books

I never said that. I said they can use their own stones. You know how you have your own stones and your cousin Bob has his own stones, so you can both spend them to do whatever you both please on whatever you each are doing? Well, if you both decide to spend them to deliver pizzas, you will devliver pizzas faster and more efficiently. I never said the stones are added to your actions: they are not your actions. Hence why I said they have nothing to do on your CAD in the first place. You are simply asking an NPC who has the action to do a job for you with their own Action, their own stones, that have nothing to do with yours at all and in any way. It's not a bonus, it's not a sitmod. The modifier simply means you might know someone who might do the job if you're a good leader, ask nice enough, pay well and/or provide him with what he wants often enough to get him to want to help you. It has, I repeat, nothing to do with your own actions. Niet. Nada. Zilch. Zip.

I just felt like you where hinting at a sort of team work effort and figured instead of trying to calculate everybody's stone input, it simply added a bonus from the general pool to something.

But so, how efficient/fast is delivering a pizza, working on some jetboots, search for a runaway teen, ect. relates to how the player have roleplayed? And how it will be achieved/work comes down to the common sense/logic/reason of the player/and/or the GM? (sometimes these things can be a little unaligned)?

Of course, the country would have to firstly have access to these things... Teens can be a very rare thing to find . But I imagine that the level would also affect the efficiency?

[Manah]

No problem. Sometimes some very important rules are hidden in the darkest corners of those books, believe you me. I'm still finding stuff I never noticed every time I open them up. XD

You're right, the way I did this might indeed be up to the GM, and I think that it absolutely should be. Ruling a country should not be as simple as 'I put stones in it, and if enough it works', another reason why I don't want to do it that way. At that point, I think it's a matter of making sure you have a good GM, because a good GM won't say 'no' for the fun of it (especially if they paid a bunch of stones for something); there's a reason if they do, and they will usually let the players get away with it as long as it makes sense, doesn't break the story and is done intelligently. And a bad GM... well, I won't play with a bad GM anyway.

I personally have come across situations where Adamantium Skeleton (or its more general name; Unbreakable Bones, as I like to call it) would have been useful. I have several characters who suffered broken bones (my Lucy 'The Technomage' Heartfilia in Rowlet's game of OA, among others, got her two legs broken by an enemy/rival mage), and again, this never happening to you probably says more about your GMs than the usefulness or the purpose of an Action or Modifier. One of the most common flaws of good GMs is to be too nice, and not want to impose such a restricting situation on the player (as well as many others; few GMs use poison, betrayal, death of friendly NPCs, and so on), so they never put them in situations where their bones can be broken, whereas I think it can be a powerful moment, and a solid 'that guy is strong' moment if a villain is the one responsible. That being said, I see nothing wrong with the modifier's cost, because I price minor invulnerabilities at 3w, and Adamantium Skeleton is basically a 'Broken bones invulnerability' so it works. In fact, I'd lower the cost at 2w if it's really adamantium making them indestructible, because Adamantium comes with flaws (weakness to magnetism, adamantium being poisonous to the organism, easily detectable to metal detectors, and so on.) That being said, the Durability thing in Adamantium Skeleton is kinda stupid, now that you mention it. If you have to pay for it, why even mention it? I'd remove that entirely from it, lol.

As for how X related to the roleplaying of the character, it's a case-by-case situation. Usually, the character will not impact pizza deliveries, that was just a silly example of mine, lol. Reason being that a civilization leader has bigger worries than how fast pizzas are delivered. XD But if a teen is missing, the leader could call contacts, the authorities, organize searching parties, dispatch vehicles, etc. Depending on his civilization's resources, technology level and so on, finding the teen might get a LOT easier thanks to this modifier. And yes, the player's actions and roleplaying will have an effect - hopefully using the aforementioned common sense/logic/reason combo - whereas the GM, while taking the modifier's elements and options into account, will definitely use said common sense/logic/reason to decide the results, if any. Again, if the GM does not use said aspects, he probably isn't using them in other areas too, find a better one, lol.

The level would indirectly impact the efficiency, since the level represents how advanced a civilization is. So naturally, a more advanced civilization will have an easier time succeeding at many tasks than a less advanced one.

[Neros]

Jul 28, 2018 11:40:39 GMT -5 Manah said:

That being said, I see nothing wrong with the modifier's cost, because I price minor invulnerabilities at 3w, and Adamantium Skeleton is basically a 'Broken bones invulnerability' so it works. In fact, I'd lower the cost at 2w if it's really adamantium making them indestructible, because Adamantium comes with flaws (weakness to magnetism, adamantium being poisonous to the organism, easily detectable to metal detectors, and so on.) That being said, the Durability thing in Adamantium Skeleton is kinda stupid, now that you mention it. If you have to pay for it, why even mention it? I'd remove that entirely from it, lol.

I think they mentioned it because it could be a "in-story" reason to get a higher Durability... I think..

But I have actually been expanding on the whole Healing wounds/broken bones for the next version of my 2.0. So Adamantium Skeleton, or as you call it: Minor Invulnerability could have a place there.

Usually, the character will not impact pizza deliveries, that was just a silly example of mine, lol. Reason being that a civilization leader has bigger worries than how fast pizzas are delivered.

Silly? My dear girl, delivering the pizza is one of the most crucial jobs the Pizza King is performing for his country. I say you, it is by far no laughing matter and should be taken very seriously. Less the nation will fall into chaos, anarchy, and cheesy-despair.

[Manah]

Well, yeah, of course it is, as far as the Pizza King is concerned, but I was talking about countries in general, not only his.

[77odinson77]

I like the idea, and I really like the level of detail you get into, but have you given any thought as to how Statecraft would factor into the equation? I always liked the idea of Statecraft but it's so underwhelming as written, it would be cool if you could find some way to make it more relevant.

[Manah]

Well, having thought about it some more, I think I like my version of Statecraft better than the one as written (though I'd add that +1 bonus when dealing with your subjects thing), so it will work as Social Skills, Business and Leadership all in one, making it more than worth the cost if you ask me. As for how it factors in the equation, it would simply have to do with dealing with NPCs and convincing people of your decisions and requests, so it has an influence as to how effectively you are able to use your civilization's resources.