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Post by ZehnWaters on Mar 12, 2019 11:05:52 GMT -5
That's, intentionally or otherwise, misrepresenting what I wrote. In all of the mentioned movies, even if GotG2 was seemingly lost along the discussion, a (male) authority figure is trying to keep the protagonist under control. They may have various reasons, some of them could even be seen as noble by the moviegoer, they certainly are seen as noble by the one enforcing them, but speaking from a narrative point of view they are just a hurdle for the hero to jump over and grow, nothing more than a challenge. That someone sees in this not new but true and tested method anything else but a safe way to drive an origin story says more about the one judging it than the movie itself. You're correct, in those films they are just a hurdle because there wasn't additional context to make it anything more. Also, again, Tony isn't trying to control Peter by taking back the suit. The suit isn't Peter's. In Captain Marvel The Patriarchy® is trying to keep her oppressed by controlling her and keeping her from self-actualizing to her full potential. Ego, Tony, and Odin were trying to get their progeny TO achieve their full potential (even if Ego's motives were sinister). Thus, not the same at all. You can't just generalize and say "see, the same!" because you're not comparing the things that make Captain Marvel what I said. If that's how you choose to view it. All she said was that it was her way of being an activist for feminism. There's feminist subtext, maybe not as overt as her but they're still aiming at the same thing. No, simply poorly worded. I didn't mean to imply you thought those kinds of movies were formulaic, only that you'd called certain movies formulaic. I should have specified. Now who's the one with bad faith? I never said that. I said the message not being overt doesn't mean it doesn't exist, it merely became subtext.
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Post by Dhark on Mar 12, 2019 11:42:47 GMT -5
It was a movie, let’s all take a breath eh?
Enjoy it for what it is— a movie. Not a documentary.
If you choose to take more from it, then do so... not much sense arguing over the fact that not everyone takes the same messages or not. You’re unlikely to convert anyone in either direction. Everyone gets to see and believe what they want. Allow them the freedom.
Personally, I think a LOT of that is just reaching for meanings and seeing what you want. But that’s just me.
I’m glad you have a passionate stance about it all. That’s awesome. I hope that you can find some happy in it all.
I’m content to let a movie be what it is, take the entertainment value, and move on with my life excitedly for Marvel’s next installment.
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Post by Gris on Mar 12, 2019 13:55:46 GMT -5
Yeah, should have known better, sorry.
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Post by Ushima911 on Mar 12, 2019 14:29:50 GMT -5
And after all that, I will simply just state I didn't enjoy the movie as it was not my cup of tea..lol. Sorry for the simplicity. I look very much forward to the other captain marvel to entertain me, though.
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Post by takewithfood on Mar 12, 2019 18:16:47 GMT -5
So, I just saw the movie about an hour ago. I'm not really sure what I just watched. It was okay? Just super bland, like if oatmeal became a superhero. The critics saying this is feminist propaganda are giving it way too much credit. While I consider it the weakest of the Marvel origin story films, it's at least inoffensive. I think I'm placing it next to Thor: The Dark world as only the second Marvel movie to get a 2/5 star rating. To me, it badly needs 2 things:
1. More time with the Kree/Skrull war at the start of the movie. We are not given enough to understand the scope or stakes of the conflict, or the role "Vers" is playing in it. Her turn-around to embrace the Skrulls as her allies and turn on her mentor doesn't land because they didn't properly set up the emotional weight in the first act.
2. More personality - or, maybe more importantly, a bigger difference in personality from "Vers" and Carol Danvers. When she gets her memories back it doesn't hit with any impact because she dosen't really change. She finds out she had a friend, and that she fell off a rope this one time. This is supposed to be the crux of her storyline: finding out who she really is, the memories her Kree fellows were hiding from her, the moment she truly becomes Captain Marvel. And it just falls so flat.
One way to fix this would be to make Vers a more straight-laced, maybe more self-doubting character, while simultaneously pumping Carol up as a stronger, braver, more resilient and complete person. Vers basically only has 6 years of memories, so it would make sense for her to have a stunted personality. This would play well with Jackson's charisma as Nick Fury: I'd like to see him try and fail to get any reaction or personality out of her when they first meet, only to have them bond more and more as her memories come to the surface.
Another route is to have her really not fit in with the other Kree right from the start: she's too jokey or too rebellious or too whatever - too anything, I don't care - only to have those traits make perfect sense once she meets her former best friend, and all the memories and puzzle pieces come together to form a complete person.
Just something, anything to give the her some kind of character or personality arc.
Seeing her wreck shit in the last couple minutes was fun, but there was not nearly enough of it. I was hoping for a larger, longer gradient in power differential from the beginning and ending of the movie. Just as it was getting cathartic the movie kinda just ends.
If anything truly annoyed me it was the neutering of the Skrulls into sympathetic victims. Not only is it super boring and tropey, it's a waste of the Skrulls.
Kudos to the first solo Marvel movie that didn't kill its villain in one go, though!
I'm optimistic for the character's future, however, as she's in the Russo brothers' capable hands, and that mid-credits Endgame stinger gave me serious nerd chills.
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Post by Ushima911 on Mar 12, 2019 19:10:52 GMT -5
Very good points, TWF. My biggest issues with the movie was the blandness as well. No spice to make it really good. It was just there. Good comparison of Thor 2, TWF. It will definitely be a movie that I'll forget most of the details in because, well, there's hardly anything there.. I went in expecting some feminist propaganda too, what with the internet soiling themselves from it, and it wasn't too present, other than the stupid cockpit line (that was quoted 1.5 times mind you..) and Gwen Stefani's 'I'm just a girl' playing in the background lol..nothing too serious or bad.. I also disliked the Skrulls in this, as they could POTENTIALLY take away from a "secret invasion" plotline. There's still some hope, but cmon don't ruin the Skrulls even for one movie.. I'll just say it, and I'll probably get hate for it. I hate Goose. Or rather, I hate merchandise bait. I hated the porgs, I hated minions, and I hated Goose. But at least Goose has comic book ties to the character. I hate goose LESS than porgs at least lol. ..I just hate hate HATE the fact that I was able to guess that the final end credit scene was going to be a gag with the cat. I literally called it after the mid credit scene was done, and hated the fact that I was right about it...Again, I'll accept your hate. I'm sorry/not sorry. Overall, it was just a bland movie. A forgettable one, at least to me. I'm glad people like Gris liked it so much. Heck, even my cousin I went with loved it, and that's great, but it's not for me. 4/10 for me. I am VERY much with TWF when he says the Russo brothers are now controlling her, and I look forward to see Captain Marvel's potential in their hands. Until then, I am literally the only person I know who actually is looking forward to Shazzam. My friends think I'm crazy for that reason. ..Am I crazy?
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Post by takewithfood on Mar 12, 2019 19:45:44 GMT -5
Oh, yes, Seriously, what was up with the No Doubt during that fight scene? That was the most tonally jarring thing in the movie. It wasn't really a fun-loving romp a-la Guardians of the Galaxy until that point, so they probably should have played her big fight scene with the movie's actual villains a little more straight. I would even have accepted some sad music a-la Last Agni Kai (you know the scene if you've seen Avatar: The Last Airbender) as Carol if forced to fight her old friends and allies possibly to the death. Or maybe this would be a good time to try to drill the movie's otherwise forgettable theme into our heads, which is something Marvel has struggled to do until recently. But nope, they went with No Doubt. Inexplicably tone deaf. In general they didn't really integrate the 90s references very well. They played short bursts of 90s pop songs over some transitional scenes, and the cars generally looked right, but that was about it. I was also a little confused that "Vers" knew what Fury meant when he told her to "lose the flannel". She knows what flannel is? Does this mean the Kree also have flannel? I can't stop picturing Ronan the Accuser lounging around in flannel pyjamas. At least they played straight the scene where she blew up the Kree missles and WRECKED one of Ronan's ship. I mean she casually killed who knows how many Kree, but it was AWESOME to watch. I love a good curbstomp battle from time to time. Okay I'm getting off topic now.
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Post by Dhark on Mar 12, 2019 20:00:51 GMT -5
She had that whole translator circuit thing TWF. Maybe flannel translated to a close enough word to know what fury meant?
#DevilsAdvocate #MovieCareBear
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Post by takewithfood on Mar 13, 2019 11:07:46 GMT -5
I also want to write quickly about something I see in a lot of reviews, both here and in professional pieces: that Captain Marvel followed the "Marvel Formula". I actually don't think it did. To me, the key to the Marvel Formula is focusing heavily on presenting the main character and giving them a relatable arc through clearly defined moments, often at the expense of story and especially the villains. I think the main reason this model has worked so well for Marvel is that, even if the movies themselves are kind of forgettable, the characters are memorable and lovable, and the audience is left wanting more. The origin story movies for Marvel's "big three" are littered with powerful, memorable, character-defining moments; it's sort of a matter of personal taste as to which is the most important, but I took the liberty of giffing the three (and a half, I cheated) that I think encapsulate their characters. They are: Iron Man (2011): Tony watches a news report about the violence in Gulmira, carried out in part with Stark Industries weapons, and contemplates using his suit for real. This scene really hammers home the moment when Tony goes from irresponsible billionaire playboy to someone willing to take matters into his own hands to make a better world. This is immediately followed by the very first true Iron Man suit-up scene, which should now rank up there as one of the most iconic moments in film. Captain America (2011): Dr. Erksine explains that Steve was chosen because he is a good man. I included the wonderful callback to this moment just after Steve's transformation that really underlines that while the serum changed his body, it did not change who he is: a good man. Thor (2011): Thor has just fought his way through SHIELD to reclaim his hammer, only to discover he is no longer worthy. This is the real beginning of his journey from spoiled and cocky to selfless hero, to Avenger, and indeed the King of Asgard. You could even further sum up the key to Thor's origin story with just the phrase "if he be worthy". Captain Marvel, though? I can't really think of a good moment that encapsulates her arc. I think what they meant for it to be was the moment where she stands up and her full powers activate. They try to set this moment up with those montages of her memories of falling down and failing, but aside from that this isn't really a turning point for her character. Aside from getting her memories back, she doesn't change as a person. Her outlook is the same, her goals are basically the same even if she is no longer working for the same organization, she pays basically no price, has no epiphany... nothing. That is not the Marvel formula.
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Post by Gris on Mar 13, 2019 11:56:26 GMT -5
I didn't feel like the movie didn't follow the formula, I just think it did it poorly, but I can totally understand what are you saying. Thor didn't really work for me, but the other two moments feel spot on. I'd have added the grenade moment for Steve though, always loved that scene.
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Post by takewithfood on Mar 13, 2019 15:58:50 GMT -5
Honestly the first Thor movie didn't really work for me as a whole. They did follow the formula in that there is a very clear difference between who Thor is in the beginning (cocky, irresponsible, unworthy) and who he is at the end (mature, responsible, worthy), but how and why he actually gets there is a bit murky. They kinda detoured into the romance between Jane and Thor, and kinda skipped the actual reformation process. That's why to me it's the look of anguish on his face when he screams up at Asgard upon realizing that he's truly been banished for good. I was expecting Captain Marvel to be patterned mostly on Captain America: period film, blonde do-gooder hero draped in red blue and stars, etc, but it was a lot closer to Thor: Fish-out-of-water story about a hero with tremendous power finding themselves. Only they didn't play up either fish-out-of-water bit, nor the self-discovery very much. I just kept wanting more of everything. One thing in the movie's favour that I neglected to add to my initial impressions: Man did I ever love the sequence where the Skrulls were sifting through her memories near the beginning of the film. Stylistically I loved the way her memories kept repeating, often in subtly different ways, and how she initially listened to and obeyed the voice's requests to focus on certain details, only to get increasingly disoriented and concerned. I was reminded of some of the better effects sequences from Dr. Strange and Ant Man that really boosted those two movies, too. I thought it was awesome, and it's a shame the rest of the movie couldn't quite keep up with that level of style.
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Post by ZehnWaters on Mar 15, 2019 9:44:23 GMT -5
So, I just saw the movie about an hour ago. I'm not really sure what I just watched. It was okay? Just super bland, like if oatmeal became a superhero. The critics saying this is feminist propaganda are giving it way too much credit. I dunno about propaganda, definite feminist themes. At least I thought so, but I already went over all of that. Agreed, definitely needed to flesh this out more. I think they kept it quiet for the twist but it still left you wondering what happened. That is seriously the number 1 complaint I've heard for this film. Carol is just so...static. She never grows, she just gets her memories back. Heck, she shows more personality in the 2 seconds she's in the Endgame trailer. I know I ranted a lot about the feminist themes but this (and how they bastardized Mar-Vell) were what bugged me the most. The feminist stuff was just irritating but ultimately bearable. But how are we supposed to have Super-Skrull and Secret Invasion now?! Secret Invasion was one of the more interesting stories told in the last decade or so. I WANT them to do a good job with this character. I've been a fan of Carol since I was a little boy. My sister had a collected issue of how she lost her powers to Rogue and I loved the story and artwork and have looked forward to seeing her on screen at some point. They've been destroying her in the comics and the movie wasn't been tons better.
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Post by ZehnWaters on Mar 15, 2019 9:49:07 GMT -5
I also disliked the Skrulls in this, as they could POTENTIALLY take away from a "secret invasion" plotline. There's still some hope, but cmon don't ruin the Skrulls even for one movie.. I'll just say it, and I'll probably get hate for it. I hate Goose. Or rather, I hate merchandise bait. I hated the porgs, I hated minions, and I hated Goose. But at least Goose has comic book ties to the character. I hate goose LESS than porgs at least lol. ..I just hate hate HATE the fact that I was able to guess that the final end credit scene was going to be a gag with the cat. I literally called it after the mid credit scene was done, and hated the fact that I was right about it...Again, I'll accept your hate. I'm sorry/not sorry. Until then, I am literally the only person I know who actually is looking forward to Shazzam. My friends think I'm crazy for that reason. ..Am I crazy? Yeah, I'm really upset about the Skrulls. The Kree are occasional antagonists in the comics, the Skrulls are bad guys. I think they were going for some kind of subversion but it's just shooting themselves in the foot storywise. I'll admit, I liked Goose but that's because I like cats. I'm also a sucker for anything cute and I don't tend to mind marketing devices as long as they still fit in the film (Porgs are cute but are shoehorned into the film for NO REASON).
I'm looking forward to Shazzam, so not just you!
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Post by ZehnWaters on Mar 15, 2019 9:57:34 GMT -5
Seriously, what was up with the No Doubt during that fight scene? ....Well I COULD go into it again but I've pretty much already covered why I think it's in the film. "WEEEE! Die former allies and friends!" Yeah that scene was cringy. No reflection or angst over the deaths of these people she used to be aligned with, just a rip-snortin' good time. After all they're just genocidal monsters. Not sure WHY they want the Skrull dead so much, kinda glossed over that war after all, but the Kree are supposed to be strawmen of deplorable people in the real world so...hate away!
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Post by takewithfood on Mar 15, 2019 10:43:39 GMT -5
Regarding feminism: Even criticism of the movie's use of feminist themes is giving the movie to much credit. She was being held back by a restraining bolt, yes, but not because she was a woman. At most it's vaguely symbolic, but has no bearing on the storyline (because there basically wasn't a storyline).
And yes, she was told by what looks like a father figure that she should stay off the race course, and harassed by a pilot colleague, but the movie was set in the 80s-90s, and it would be a little weird if these things didn't happen. I think they tried to make those moments into a feminist statement, but again, they put so little emphasis on it that Carol's memories ultimately had next to no impact on her character arc. In general she wasn't given the opportunity to make impactful decisions, so it didn't really matter what she was influencing her.
What was she going to do, kill the innocent Skrull civilians? Let the Kree kill her? Give the villains the Tesseract? Let Ronan blow up the planet? These are such easy decisions that any MCU character, and frankly anyone watching the movie would probably make exactly the same choices.
Basically what I'm saying is that they put about as much effort into the feminist symbolism as they did giving the movie a retro 90's feel: The fact that the movie was set in the 90's had no bearing on the story or the way events played out, they just played some quick cuts of Big Shiny Tunes 2 over scene transitions and stuck some Melon Collie posters in the background. The feminism is there so briefly and so ineffectually that I can't see someone finding it that offensive unless they're allergic.
The exception to this is the aforementioned No Doubt scene, which was a cringey abomination. I can't believe everyone signed off on that.
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