Throwing: Distance, Damage, Ev'rything

[cerpg]

I have been thinking of a comprehensive rule for the MURPG’s imprecision in leading with damage and distance, regarding throwing and projecting and telekinesis (amongst other similar powers). For being so inclusive, it ends up being somewhat complex… But anyway, I see it fun and worthwhile!

The 12 rules are as follows:

1. If using Str for throwing opposing people, go to step 6; else, go to 2;
2. If using TK for throwing opposing people, go to step 7; else, go to 3;
3. If using TK or Str for throwing objects or unopposing people, go to step 8; else, go to 4 (if using stones in Str to lift, you may choose to put also stones in Ranged Combat to throw);
4. If you hit something (with whichever Action), calculate the damage normally and go to step 5;
5. From the original red stones of damage, subtract all that have nothing to do with thrust (e.g. fire, poison, disintegration, piercing/slashing weapon bonuses, Int or Agi bonus Close Combat, etc…), ignore x2 or x3 dmg. mod., and go to step 7;
6. Previously, you must have grabbed the opponent: Close Combat Stones vs. Defense, ignoring Toughness. The remaining stones are Resistance for the opponent to break free, and your Str or Close Combat AN (you chose which) is the Difficulty. Go to step 7;
7. Subtract the target’s Str or Dur (whichever is higher), and stones for any other things that may be holding the target, from the initial stones and go to step 8;
8. The stones you have now are the Red Stones of Effort (=RSE);
Max. Dist. (= MDst) (Range row of D&R Chart) = RSE – Weight of target;
Max. Dmg. (= MDmg) = RSE + Weight of object.
Go to step 9;
9. Damage Decrease Rate (= DDR) = RSE/MDist. Go to step 10;
10. Impact Damage (= IDmg) = MDmg – (DDR x Dist. of target). The Impact Damage is applied to both impact surfaces. If any surface is broken, go to step 11; else, stop here.
11. The one destroyed (if any) suffers full IDmg. Go to step 12;
12. The remaining body receives only the damage needed to break the other, and keeps moving: subtract the damage the remaining body received + the distance already run from the initial RSE and return to step 8.

So... What do you think?! Check the following examples below to see how it works...!

Also, see below to understand how one can use Ranged Combat instead of Strength to attack with thrown objects.

[cerpg]

Now some examples (some had already happened, others came just out of my mind!):

Example 1: Silver Surfer vs. (Webbed!) Sabertooth on a parking lot

Silver Surfer acts at the same time than Sabertooth, who’d been entangled by Spidey’s web. Sabertooth puts 4 stones in Strength to break free from the web (and none in Defense); Silver Surfer puts 10 in Close Combat (Str bonus) and 10 of Flight (free from his board). Result: Sabertooth gets +2 to rip the web with his claws, but just before leaving, he is smashed hard…
There is a brick wall of a warehouse 1 stone away; the damage the unconscious Sabertooth gets is as follows on the next paragraph:
The Surfer causes 20 of damage, and Sabertooth is knocked out. However, he is still propelled backwards. We’ll follow steps 1-2-3-4-5-7 (where we subtract Dur 5 + Web 1 from the initial 20 stones = 14 stones). Step 8 gives us RSE = 14, MDst = 14 – 3 = 11 and MDmg = 14 + 3 = 17. Step 9 shows that DDR = 14/11. Step 10 shows that IDmg = 17 – (14/11) = 16. Step 11 gives that the wall is destroyed for 16 – Resistance (5) = 11-stone hole, making the left side of the warehouse crumble!! Step 12: Sabertooth suffers 5 stones of damage (2 white of health) and goes on flying.
Sabertooth flies through the warehouse, straight to the left wall, 3 stones away. We’ll follow steps 1-2-3-8: RSE = 8, MDst = 5 and MDmg = 11. Step 9 shows that DDR = 8/5. Step 10 shows that IDmg = 11 – (8/5 x 3) = 6. Step 11 gives that the second wall is destroyed for 6 – Resistance (5) = 1-stone hole. Step 12: Sabertooth suffers now 6 stones of damage (more 2 white of health) because GM decides that this hole is not enough for Sabertooth to pass through; therefore, he receives all the damage (6 instead of 5).
Sabertooth now lies extremely hurt inside the warehouse, for the luck of Silver Surfer: aside the warehouse there’s a highway; went Sabertooth there, he could be overrun and die!

Example 2: Thing vs. Blob below a building

The Thing saw Blob with a young mutant from above and decided to intervene. So, he jumps down from the roof of a 100-foot building and crushes down the unaware Blob.
The Thing puts 5 stones in Str for leaping down in safety, and 11 stones in Close Combat (+1 for attacking from above, +2 for ambush). The Blob has 4 free stones of Defense.
The Thing causes 15 of damage, knocking out the Blob. However, Blob is still smashed downwards. Steps: 1-2-3-4-5-7-8 (RSE = 7, MDst = 7 – 3 = 4 and MDmg = 7 + 3 = 10). Step 9: DDR = 7/4. Step 10 (impact on the ground): IDmg = 10 – (5/2 x0) = 10. The Blob suffers 3 white stones of damage, and is disabled inside a 200-foot crater on the ground!

Example 3: Venom vs. Kingpin on a desert street at night

Venom is extremely resentful with Kingpin after the humiliation of Eddie Brock on a recent business meeting. “They” want Fisk to pay for it!
Venom puts 9 stones in Close Combat to grab Kingpin. The Kingpin puts 4 stones in Defense (+1 free stone) and 7 stones in Social Skills to convince Venom to stop.
Venom goes first and grabs Kingpin (R = 5, D = 7), who can’t speak.
On the 2nd page, Venom says he a) starts gyrating Kingpin and b) web him with 1 (+6 free, +1 for the short distance) stones. The Kingpin uses 5 stones of Close Combat to escape Venom. However, now the R to escape increased to 13, from which the Kingpin removed 5, to 8.
On the 3rd page, Venom says he a) keeps spinning round Kingpin and b) web him with more 1 (+6 free, +1 for the short distance) stones. The Kingpin uses 4 stones of Close Combat to escape. Now Kingpin is hold with 11 stones and still is being spinned round (“what the heck is this black nightmare doing??!”).
Fourth and fifth pages: Venom only keeps spinning round him, faster and faster. The Kingpin removes more 8 stones, to 3, now.
At the beginning of the 6th page, Venom is with all his 9 stones of energy, and the Kingpin with only 4. Venom puts 7 stones in Strength to throw Kingpin to the sky (+2 stones of preparation, +1 stone for the really cool description, +1 for motivation, –1 for gravity); the Kingpin puts more 4 stones to escape the grab. Result: Kingpin is thrown up with 10 stones! Steps: 1-2-3-4-5-7-8 (RSE = 6, MDst = 6 – 3 = 3 and MDmg = 6 + 3 = 9). Step 9: DDR = 2. Step 10 has no relevance here, for there won’t be an impact. Kingping is thrown 80 feet on the air, and falls down for 3 white stones of damage, making an immense hole of 6 stones (height 8 + weight 3 – hardness 5) on the asphalt. Fearing Venom’s real intent, the Kingpin chooses not to be knocked out…

Example 4: Jean Grey vs. Pyro and Mystique on a hill

Jean Grey wakes up and sees she has been poisoned and now is held with ropes, being carried by Pyro, who is aside Mystique waiting for a plane.
Jean puts 10 stones in TK to throw Mystique on Pyro, 5 feet away, because she is wearing a TP-inhibitor collar. Mystique puts 3 stones in Ranged Combat and 3 in Defense; Pyro, 5 in Mastery of Fire and 3 in Defense. Steps: 1-2-7-8 (RSE = 7, MDst = 7 – 2 = 5 and MDmg = 7 + 2 = 9). Step 9: DDR = 7/5. Step 10 (impact on Pyro): IDmg = 9 – (7/5 x1) = 8. Both Mystique and Pyro are seriously hurt, losing 2 white stones of health; but then Mystique shoots Jean: she’d get 3 white stones of damage (including Mystique’s bonus for short distance), so she decides to be knocked out. Pyro follows Mystique’s instructions and holds fire, vexed: Magneto wants Jean alive.


So... Any comment?!

[quixoteles]

You can do this in your head? Jesus, this sounds hard. But then again. I ain't never been good at math.

[cerpg]

quixoteles said:

You can do this in your head? Jesus, this sounds hard. But then again. I ain't never been good at math.

Maybe you're right, dude! But after all, it is not really hard...! ;D You just gotta get the logic implied on it!

Anyway, I'll be trying to figure out a simple software to make all these calculations: one'll only have to put in the values!

[chip]

I generally make things simpler: maybe it's not so precise and physically correct, but the game is definitely quicker. To throw, you use stones for distance according to range (D&R chart), while the others stones (equal or greater than weight) count for damage. So, according to this rule, the weight is included in the effort. My idea (I know, not very precise) is that if the object you throw is lighter, you can throw it faster, and viceversa, so that you get a balance (for instance a bullet can do lots of damage and it's very light but thrown with a lot of strength). Of course, you could add the weight (an perhaps the hardness) of the object to damage, if you prefer. I'm not saying your way isn't good. I simply prefer quickness and simplicity, since I think you can get lots of fun from them (maybe, a bit of non-sense is also funny!). I think it also depends on the style of your game. So, enjoy it!

[cerpg]

chip said:

I generally make things simpler: maybe it's not so precise and physically correct, but the game is definitely quicker. To throw, you use stones for distance according to range (D&R chart), while the others stones (equal or greater than weight) count for damage. So, according to this rule, the weight is included in the effort. My idea (I know, not very precise) is that if the object you throw is lighter, you can throw it faster, and viceversa, so that you get a balance (for instance a bullet can do lots of damage and it's very light but thrown with a lot of strength). Of course, you could add the weight (an perhaps the hardness) of the object to damage, if you prefer. I'm not saying your way isn't good. I simply prefer quickness and simplicity, since I think you can get lots of fun from them (maybe, a bit of non-sense is also funny!). I think it also depends on the style of your game. So, enjoy it!

The idea seems nice! Anyhow, let's see if I got the idea?
For example: if Hulk throws with 10 stones a (very hard) 4-stone object into a tree, he must decide how many stones go to distance and how many (at least 4) to damage?!? Anyway... After cleaving the tree, how long (and for how much damage) would the object go!?

[chip]

I think you decide the stones from distance using the range line in the D&R chart. This stones, that is this piece of effort/strength, are needed to overcome the distance. What spared is used to damage (and must be >= weight). The effort to lift is compensated by the weight of the object, I don't know if this point it's clear. Maybe would it be useful add a modifier related to weight/hardness/other. I tried to figure out a rule with this modifier, but the problem is always the same: if you want to be realistic, the rule becomes rapidly complicated, so I generally use common sense. I'd like to find a good compromise with some help. What do you think?

[cerpg]

chip said:

I think you decide the stones from distance using the range line in the D&R chart. This stones, that is this piece of effort/strength, are needed to overcome the distance. What spared is used to damage (and must be >= weight). The effort to lift is compensated by the weight of the object, I don't know if this point it's clear. Maybe would it be useful add a modifier related to weight/hardness/other. I tried to figure out a rule with this modifier, but the problem is always the same: if you want to be realistic, the rule becomes rapidly complicated, so I generally use common sense. I'd like to find a good compromise with some help. What do you think?

I think it would be perfect if it was easier... Anyway, the rule I proposed seems extensive (because I put it in an "logical" way), but it is not complicate! It basically treats the stones of damage (minus Str or Dur of the target) as stones of Str to throw any other thing, take a look!

There are only some modifications from the default rule: no x2 damage (because the target's weight acts as a weapon modifier), no -1 stone/10 feet (but -1 stone/stone of distance), and weight conting for damage but against distance.

Durability/Toughness influence damage (but less than the weight), as seen in Rules 11 and 12!

From the 12 steps, one will most likely use only 8-10 (and maybe 6 for grappling)! 11 and 12 are just the repeat of 8-10, see?!

[chip]

I find your survey quite logical (grab...), as you say. However, can you help me to understand the ideas behind your rule? I think it's the best way to evaluate it. For instance, I think Max distance = Effort - Weight very natural. I'm not so sure about max damage (even with my rule, this is the reason why I'm very interested, see below where I try to explain the ideas behind my rule). The thing I find most strange it's the fraction in DDR (I mean, strange according to MURPG mechanics, not logic). Can you explain your motivations?

Here I try to explain mine (yesterday I was in a hurry and I'd like to be clearer). I'm reasoning on a very simple case (I think when this is clear, we can develop the more complex ones), that is when you throw an object against an enemy.

1. You use stones for distance (range in D&R chart) that don't count for damage. This reflects the fact that you're less effective when you throw something very distant, since the object arrive with less strength. In other words, you need these stones to overcome distance.

2. Heavier objects make more damage, so you add to damage the weight (you have to use at least weight stones to lift the object).

3. However, heavier objects are harder to throw, so that you have a decreasing of the effect. How to evaluate this? For simplicity, we could omit this fact. Otherwise, I suggest a negative modifier difficult to quantify (maybe a fraction of Weight, but I said I'd like to avoid fractions).

4. Harder objects make more damage, so you can add a positive modifier equal to Hardness, again difficult to quantify.

I think the modifiers in points 3 and 4 can simplify one the other so, always for the sake of simplicity, I omit both of them.

5. Aerodynamic objects go faster, so you can add a modifier (GM discretion, here I've no doubts).

6. Each additional Strength stone counts to damage.

[cerpg]

Well, DDR simply says that at range 0 (i.e., if you don't throw, but swing instead, like Sandman could do with a tree on Spidey) the object'd act almost like a melee weapon (dmg. mod. = weight, summed with the effort) and at maximum range, the damage'd be equal to the object's weight (the propelling force finished, after all!). Simply put: anything closer to the thrower would cause more damage; anything farther, less.

And I don't think hardness should have more relevance (or should a ball of 50 lb of steel be less lethal than a 50-lb ball of adamantium??) ... I understand that what matters is the weight and it the object breaks or not (by the way, have you ever seen Steve Jackson Game's GURPS Supers' rules of projection?).

There is a main difference between our solutions, as follows. I think like this: the stronger you throw, the further the projectile'll go, whereas you say that there are two different efforts to make: reaching and damaging.

Pretty interesting this your idea, I should say ! It is very practical, indeed, and makes a lot of sense. Basically, you're talking about angle and force of propulsion. All the same, they are not completely independent variables in terms of stone allocation. I will explain it better with an example: if Hulk threw a brick (1-stone weight) for damage 8 and distance 2 (that would be an almost straight shot, the most damaging way of impact), don't you agree that sounds weird that the brick would not reach the half of a city block!?

As I said, I see your point as very wise and simpler (but it covers only throwing objects... It does not include cleaving, neither projecting).

Let's make a simple comparison to test'em: suppose Magneto (Str 9) throws a minibus (5-stone weight) into a bank wall (R4 to break) 3 stones away to full effort:

*Book's rule:Effort to throw = 5
Distance = +6R (average)
Result: Magneto cannot reach the bank.

*Mine:RSE = 9 (the 9 stones Magneto used)
MDst = 9-5 = 4
MDmg = 9+5 = 14
DDR = 9/4
IDmg = 14 - (9/4 x 3) = 7
Result: the minibus breaks through the wall. There is a gap of 3 stones on the wall. The minibus is not broken (suffered 4 stones of damage [the necessary to cross the wall], less than bus' hardness). 3 RSE (Damage 7 - R4) pass through the wall, but since at least 5 RSE are needed to move the minibus (Weight 5), it stops across the wall.

*Chip's: Effort to dist. = 3
Effort to dmg. = 6
Result: 6 stones of damage. The minibus destroys the wall.

Some groups prefer to figure out something on the spot, and that's OK! For these, I'd recommend following Chip's rules (MUCH better than the book's)... On the other hand, the others (like mine) that rather being more precise and fair (at the expense of some play speed), and don't like to be caught flat-footed, I recommend my rule. It is also better (I guess) when you are challenging a friend on a one-to-one battle. As any rule in RPG games, it serves to avoid subjective discussions, after all ("What'd happen if Rogue hurled a car into a Sentinel's chest??").

[chip]

Lots of points.

I totally agree your rule is overwhelming more complete than mine and I was referring only to throw objects and target damage. I think I could adapt some of your rules, in particular points 11 and 12 (if you haven't copyrighted them yet ;D).

As to hardness, I think it could somehow count (and I think that to be hit from 1 kg adamantium is worse than from 1 kg plumes), but I agree it's not so important and, as I said, I don't use it.

I'm not sure to understand (linguistically) your remark on Hulk. I think in that case you have a hole of Area 8 - Resistance (i.e. Hardness of what hit, as in Charge Objects example). But I think to improve this using your hints (again, 11 and 12).

As to Magneto, with my rule the damage is 6 however, not 11 (I don't add weight since I considered it included in the stones to lift), and I think it's better since it's similar to your result.

I agree with you about limiting discretion concerning only-players duels. In other cases, I prefer to use it (you can adjust a lot by common sense, more than with rules I fear); nonetheless, why to renounce to a good rule to begin with? I find your rule reasonable and I agree on your considerations about "tastes": you can't have all, indeed. Thanks for the interesting discussion. I repeat I'm going to follow some of your suggestions.

[cerpg]

OK, it was very good to talk to you!! And I fixed up the example with your rule, OK!?

Again, in my rule, hardness DOES count : a 1kg of plumes ball would need only 1 (or 0 stones) to be "broken": and, according to rule 12, the remaining body (a character, for instance) would ONLY receive that (1 or 0) damage, see?!

To Hulk, I was saying that if he throws a brick for 8 of damage, it is strange that the throw will not reach 30 yards of distance (don't you agree?!)!

And feel completely free to use the rules!! If at least part of them come to be of ANY use, I will be extremelly happy!! ;D

[cerpg]

You may throw with Ranged Combat, also:
1) You must put stones in Str to lift: these will rule the RSE for MDst.
2) The stones you put into Ranged Combat are the RSE for Mdmg and DDR.

So, if Bullseye lifts a garbage can with 3 stones in Str and throws it with 6 stones in Ranged Combat...
Mdst = 3-1 = 2; Mdmg = 6+1 = 7; DDR = 6/2 = 3.

However, if it is a thrown WEAPON (like Captain America throwing his shield), use the standard rules, adding 1R for each additional stone of distance... and forgeting about the "+1R/10 ft." stuff!