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Post by Lord Zack on Jan 11, 2006 17:35:03 GMT -5
The Hulk and the Blob get alot of energy for being durable. Professor X. and Jean Grey get energy for being geniuses. Quicksilver is nethier and yet he can go speed 10 almost indefinetly. Why should he be forced to have a durability of five when he does not? My solution? Allow him to buy energy based on speed, like Intelligence-based characters can. What do you think?
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Post by sgingell on Jan 11, 2006 18:59:59 GMT -5
It's a thought. I don't see why it would be any more unbalanced than Intelligence based energy. It opens the door to using any attribute as a basis for energy, which seems like it could have weird consequences.
I still like attribute modifiers better in that they can only be used for one purpose. As it stands, Charles Xavier has a lot of energy for his Telepathy (which is great), but he also has tons of energy to put into physical tasks (which seems wrong). As written, Charles would make a champion boxer, he'd beat the tar out of Frank Castle in a straight punch out for example. Part of that problem is because they let him use his intelligence as a CC modifier, but equally important is he can regenerate 7 stones per panel to fuel his CC.
-Stephen
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Post by Kaimontfendo on Jan 11, 2006 19:52:14 GMT -5
Well, I've considered a house rule that characters use their durability to generate energy for physical tasks (like close combat) but use their intelligence to generate energy for mental tasks (Like Telepathy, Technology, or General Knowledge). I've never tried this, but it seems like a decent solution, easy enough to implement. Speed-based energy isn't such a good idea, just because you shouldn't be able to run forever. Even if you make speed cost double, and the max energy reserve equal to the character's speed, he still can keep running forever at top speed, and never get tired. Durability and Intelligence work better as energy bases because they are far less frequently implemented directly. (Or something. I'm terrible with words.  ) An idea that happened to pop into my head is to have a max energy reserve based on energy, but keep the regeneration rate based on durability. I don't know what you'll make of that, but I have to get going. |
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Post by sphynx on Jan 12, 2006 2:29:00 GMT -5
I think it's a bad idea also.
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Post by Lord Zack on Jan 12, 2006 17:49:21 GMT -5
So? If you have a durability of 3 you can use close combat 3 forever. Or any other action. Is this realistic? No.
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Post by Raynor on Jan 13, 2006 1:01:06 GMT -5
I kinda thought it wasn't that bad of an idea. I always had the house rule in mind that the intelligence rule would be limited to mental actions, so the speed energy rule might be the same.
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Post by sphynx on Jan 13, 2006 2:24:31 GMT -5
Sorry, I should have explained my 'I think it's a bad idea'.
I think it's a bad idea because of theme, not mechanics. From a mechanical point of view, it's as logical as Intelligence based. The problem is theme.
There are 2 sources of energy in the body. Chemical/BioElectrical (your usual energy levels that determine if you yawn/sleep or muscles wear down), and pure Willpower (which tends to accelerate adreneline as well as just allow you to go past the point of exhaustion).
Speed isn't a power source, it's a power drainer, just like Strength is. Whoever suggested that the Speedster have a modifier to speed had the better idea. A modifier to a non-durability attribute should be at least a +5, and at +5, a speedster could go indefinitely on 15 stones (15 stones for Speed 10, 15 stones for a MN of 5), but there, the speedster wouldn't gain "energy stones" for everything else also, just speed.
Sphynx
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Post by Scriptus on Jan 13, 2006 15:03:45 GMT -5
I agree with Sphynx on the theme issue but that could be easily circumvented. Flash's Speed Force is a great example of how an extradimensional source of power can supply extra speed based energy. In one comic I have Wally becomes disconnected from the speed force and loses all of his powers (and extra energy). Speed bonus makes much more sense to me in many cases (barring telepaths and magicians) than an intelligence bonus does. How in the world does Tony Stark regenerate 7 stones a panel any way? Just seems wrong to me that Stark's body regenerates more red stones per panel than his armor does. I know you have to figure in all the armor's modifiers but still. Any way there's my 2 cents. I'm personally in favor of coming up with a system that separates energy generation from the other stats altogether but we already had that nasty and vicious discussion several months ago.   It should still be here on the boards somewhere. |
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Post by sphynx on Jan 13, 2006 15:12:06 GMT -5
That's just it though. Flash isn't getting the Energy from his Speed, he's getting it from the Modifier SpeedForce.  |
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Post by vigilante on Feb 1, 2006 12:23:42 GMT -5
i actually think this is a good idea, i was thinking of this myself when i saw this thread.
The reason i dont see this as out of theme is because i see energy in MURP in a broader sense than purely energy.
I dont see int based energy characters as using will power to give them more energy, i see it as they think that much quicker and clearer that they can spend more time putting effort into a task.
And i invision speedsters the same (ok, they dont think faster, but they do everything so much quicker that they have more time available to put effort in)
Only in extreme circumstances have i ever seen a speedster tire out but i've regularly seen them get smacked about, which i think they should gain their energy from something that doesnt involve making them really tough.
I hope that makes sense
Cheers
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Post by quixoteles on Mar 4, 2006 21:00:09 GMT -5
This seems funny, I always thought that it was assumed that moving 100 miles from apparent danger was tactically sound. Even if Quicksilver is a little winded he is 100 miles away by a conservative estimate of serious trouble.
And relating to speed, yeah Charles can kick Franks butt, if he could keep in range of his fists in a wheel chair... Theres more to a fight than allocating stones to attack. The man has no legs, he can't dodge nuthin. Frank kicks over his wheel chair and all the energy pools in the world is going to cure a stomp down of epic proportions.
Intelligence energy is an axiom as much as it is a mechanics thing. Yogi's can do incredible feat of endurance that are not even in the realm of consideration of even Olympic athletes.
If you want to create a intelligence based street-fighter, then go ahead, I think there was one and he got into a fight with spider man. He was a goon of the kingpin called Dapper Dan. I love Dapper Dan, he rocks. Dresses like Sinatra, great style. He even was on an old cover.
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Post by mako on Mar 4, 2006 23:14:02 GMT -5
Besides, Intelligence based energy is the only current way to give a character enough energy for certain tasks without making them abnormally durable. Take my Jack CAD in Teen Terrors. I COULD have based him in durability, but he's not REALLY putting lots of effort into those attacks, he's just riding the glider and throwing weapons. He's not that durable either. So I did what I had availible.
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Post by sgingell on Mar 8, 2006 21:24:46 GMT -5
And relating to speed, yeah Charles can kick Franks butt, if he could keep in range of his fists in a wheel chair... Theres more to a fight than allocating stones to attack. The man has no legs, he can't dodge nuthin. Frank kicks over his wheel chair and all the energy pools in the world is going to cure a stomp down of epic proportions. In the comic? Yes, you're absolutely right, Frank is a peak human fighter and Charles is a crippled old man. Given the mechanics of the game? How on earth is Frank going to kick over the wheelchair of someone who has more than twice as much energy to spend on close combat per round as he does? Charles has more energy in his pool, more than twice the regeneration per round, enough action number to stop Frank's best attack, and the same spending cap on attacks. Someone playing Charles *could* lose the fight, but every numerical advantage in a fistfight would go to the smart old man rather than the ex-Marine. Does that seem right to you? Yes, Frank could use Speed to defend himself (better known as "Running from the scary disabled man"), but he'd better climb a tree because (again, under the rules) Charles is just as fast as Frank... -Stephen |
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Post by quixoteles on Mar 10, 2006 8:44:24 GMT -5
He has a disadvantage called confined to a wheel chair. This is like saying that according to pure stats doctor strange could beat me no matter what in a round of the board game operation. (doc strange has bum hands, can't do delicate manual labor.)
Stats don't mean anything when you don't play by your opponents rules
Wheelchair versus the dancing feet of an ex marine? No question. His AO is higher as well I think. Even if it isn't still, one good his and that's all charles gets. Unless the wheelchair is a hotrod. Which may be possible, My dear friends wife got a fast one. Look goes something like this.
GM: So the conflict begins player one you announce your actions first what next?
Player one: I'm playing prof. X and I'm kick ass with these stats! so I roll up to him and knock his block off! one bil-lll-lion stones! (player one makes doctor Evil face, lightening, strikes thrunder rolls.)
Player two: (player two closes the window after he finishes throwing his spent cigarette out of it look over his shoulder at player one.) Cute. 2 stones CC to push over the invalent in the chair over before he can attack; split the rest of my 5 stones in CC into beating a sad bitter old mutant in the head with a +2 base ballbat.
GM: Higher AO takes priority. Player one falls, +4 stone resistance to all physical action while prone and without use of legs next round, speed reduced to 0, energy pool reduced by six. Health reduced by three.
Player one: But it's not fair! I have like a billion energy!
GM: No you don't not anymore, it looks like you have 1 red stone left. Better hope wolverine finds you.
Player two: Punisher does a hit and run. First round a breather, second round sell the base ball bat to a Dominican kid in El Barrio and head to the sewers to keep the heat off. All full stones black-ops with one of those specialties on the CAD.
GM: Granted...
Captian America fought Thanos toe to toe, Killed the red skull while he was in possession of the cosmic cube, kicked Hulk in the nuts. There are no rules in this game that say pure number mean anything. All of the actions are not created equal. They work perfectly for what they are meant to do. This game is not fair. Rick Jones could beat Frank Castle if the strageties were right. It's not all about numbers in the end.
And even if thier agy were the same. One sock on the chin of frank castle versus a prone helpless combatant. He picks up that baseball bat and it's over. Look at the big picture.
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Post by sgingell on Mar 12, 2006 14:59:00 GMT -5
There are no rules in this game that say pure number mean anything. I just don't understand what you're trying to convey. Are you really saying that if one player puts "a billion" stones into CC in an effort to avoid being knocked over, and another puts in 2, the defender gets knocked over? You are free to house rule up all sorts of advantages for high AN if you want, but the result you describe is a pretty major departure from the rules as written. -Stephen |
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It should still be here on the boards somewhere.