New Action: Morphing

[wayne]

Okay guys, I'm going to need advice on whether this one is appropriately priced or not....

<<EDIT: Finally got feedback! I've upped the cost to AN+12, removed the free Reconstitution/Healing Factor in place of a discount, lowered the discount for Toughness, and clarified some of it's limitations and abilities.>>

<<EDIT: OK, I think this is the final tweak. I've clarified things a bit more, added an example, and, after thinking on it, I think only having Agility as an option for the Ability bonus works better and makes more sense. Also, Bullseye pointed out that being able to increase Strength essentially let you transfer levels from one Ability to another (yuck!), so that's scrapped. So, don't expect any more edits for a while! >>

MORPHING
Cost = Action Number + 12

Description
A combination of elements of Stretching, and Shapeshifting, you can deform and manipulate your body's shape and appearance to extremes.

This power can be used as Close or Ranged Combat (range 4; one stone per distance stretched is needed in addition to the attack,) but cannot combine with them. To use offensively, simply describe what form you use to attack. You can stretch, shapeshift (although without being able to instantly mimic others), grow appendages (including wings for Flight up to speed 5), melt through cracks, etc.--this Action is similar to a Mastery in its utility.

Any altered form can be maintained for 1 stone/panel. Comes with a free Agility bonus. You may also purchase Toughness at -1 cost level, Healing Factors at -1 cost level, and/or Reconstitute Self at -2 stones to cost.

Note that you cannot morph away damage, or alter your overall mass/weight/density. Any size increase can only result from stretching... you can't use the power as Growth or Shrink. Finally, note that you can't in any way gain free stones beyond those you put into the power; nor can you put stones into a form and then reuse those stones continually as if crafting a permanent weapon/shield/etc.

Comments
This Action can be extremely powerful, even when it's discounts aren't taken advantage of.

Rule for Modifier Box:

• Stretch, morph, and/or change appearance or shape
  
• Use as Close or Ranged Combat (range 4)
  
• Duration: 1 stone/panel
  
• Agility Bonus
  
• Discounts to Toughness, Healing Factors, Reconstitute Self

Example
Hoplo is attempting to assassinate a Congressman, and has trapped the man in his office. He has Morphing at level 1, and an Agility of 4. He morphs his hand into a lance and puts all 5 stones into attacking the Congressman. It easily bypasses his 1-stone defense, doing 2 white stones of damage and stunning the man.

Just then, Hero Kid bursts through the door, and Hoplo realizes he's about to be nailed. The Kid is beyond close combat range, so Hoplo first attempts to stretch and morph into some form of containment around the kid, again applying 5 stones (although 1 is spent on reaching him.) Hero Kid's defenses let him avoid the attack, and he retaliates with a 4 stone force blast of his own.

Hoplo, hurt somewhat by the attack (his reduced-cost Toughness helped him deflect some of it,) decides it's time to leave. He puts 4 stones into Morphing: 2 to create wings large enough to get him out in a hurry, and 2 to overcome the Resistance required to fly at Speed 5 (he can achieve that speed because his Action Number plus his Agility total 5.) He zooms past Hero Kid, and out the door.

Hoplo had a number of other options available to him too. He could have spent 5 stones to stretch himself to a nearby vent and slide into it. Or he could have put 5 stones into defense (morphing his body out of the way of the blast) instead of into an attack, and avoided taking damage in the first place. Or he could have spent stones to wrap himself around the body of the Congressman, essentially holding him hostage.

In any event, once a safe distance away, Hoplo could then morph into a reasonable replica of the Congressman and then walk to safety, avoiding detection from most eyes... unless someone asked him something, at least!

[clownpool23]

This is exactly what I needed for one of my X-men characters. I'm going to run it by the GM and see what he thinks of it.

Thanks,
Brad

[i3ullseye]

Cost is WAY too low for this.

The rule is basically each element from a power added to another are calculated at their modifer + rank. If it is a base action/power itself then it adds is base + modifier to the total.

What do I mean? If you add the create links with others from telepathy to a power it adds +1 to that power cost, just like it would if added to telepathy. And if you wanted to add Blasting to a power, you add +2, since it is an A#+2 power. So starting at a base cost, all of these modifiers add to create the sum total of an action.

Stretching is +5
Shape Shifting is +3
Metamorphosis is +6!

Thats +14 right there.

None of these have an attribute bonus in the first place, so the Int or Agi bonus will add another +5 bringing us to +19.

Stretching only offers a -1 Toughness discount, so this shouldn't have above that.

And a FREE reconstitute self (8 white stones) or Accelerated Healing Factor (a +4! off Durability) is absurd.

And on top of all of this you want to be able to use it as close or ranged combat. To be able to COMBINE with Close Combat or Ranged Combat is a base +2, so being bale to use it in Lieu of, and add another attribute bonus on top of that, this is easily a +5 at least.

No, this is WAY underpriced i think.

[clownpool23]

I'm gonna run this thread by my GM and see what he says, then let him tell me what I can and can't do. The character I'm trying to play is basicaly Clay Face from Batman.

[wayne]

I see a lot of your points. I'll comment below.

i3ullseye said:

Cost is WAY too low for this.

The rule is basically each element from a power added to another are calculated at their modifer + rank. If it is a base action/power itself then it adds is base + modifier to the total.

What do I mean? If you add the create links with others from telepathy to a power it adds +1 to that power cost, just like it would if added to telepathy. And if you wanted to add Blasting to a power, you add +2, since it is an A#+2 power. So starting at a base cost, all of these modifiers add to create the sum total of an action.

Stretching is +5
Shape Shifting is +3
Metamorphosis is +6!

Thats +14 right there.

That's true, and that was where I was heading, but I hadn't meant for it to be used just like those powers, but only to have "elements" of them.

Metamorphosis can literally let you start out as Joe Blow, "husk" or "morph" or whatever, and suddenly be a glowing, metal android, with increased Toughness, Mastery of Electricity, and even a Force Blast if desired! (At least, that's how the book seems to be allowing it.) Metamorphosis also lets you "husk" away damage, which this power doesn't do.

Shapeshifting lets you copy someone perfectly (down to retinal patterns and voiceprints!) after one panel of observation. This power wasn't supposed to allow that (you'd have to study numerous aspects of the target for at least a day before achieving THAT level of mimicry.)

I had figured that, while you'd have the full power to Stretch, you'd only have +2 of the Shapeshifting and +2 of Metamorphosis at most.

(I probably was too open when I stated you could do "pretty much anything you can imagine." I'll have to be more precise.)

i3ullseye said:

None of these have an attribute bonus in the first place, so the Int or Agi bonus will add another +5 bringing us to +19.

Stretching only offers a -1 Toughness discount, so this shouldn't have above that.

And a FREE reconstitute self (8 white stones) or Accelerated Healing Factor (a +4! off Durability) is absurd.

This is where I was wondering how much I was fudging things. I was wanting to give a discount of some sort for "buying" the skills together, in the form of extras...

You're right about the Toughness discount. I don't even remember why I put that at -2, so I'll go ahead and drop it down.

Ditto for the Reconstitution and Healing Factor. Maybe a discount instead might make more sense, if anything. +1 for a -2 stone or -1 cost level discount?

As for the Ability bonuses, I wasn't viewing them as +5, that would be overblown. I was thinking more along the lines of Telekinesis, where the nature of the power makes sense for there to be a discount on a Weapon Modifier. Perhaps +2 would work for this, maybe limited to only one Ability, not a choice of two (the Agility makes sense for detailed control, but I was viewing the Intelligence as another possiblity--the way Green Lantern makes use of his artistic ability to be more creative with his ring.)

i3ullseye said:

And on top of all of this you want to be able to use it as close or ranged combat. To be able to COMBINE with Close Combat or Ranged Combat is a base +2, so being bale to use it in Lieu of, and add another attribute bonus on top of that, this is easily a +5 at least.

C'mon now, you can't be serious here, are you?

TK is used as both, and it's only a +2. Many other Combat Actions that are range 4 or better (meaning they can be used up-close or distant) are cheaper than +5: Force Blast, Force Field, Fireworks... and that's just the "F"s! I get the impression that ALL Combat Actions essentially cost the same, but you pay for the extra "features". Force Blast has no extra frills, and so no extra cost. Force Field lets you extend it to protect others, blocks Armor Penetration, and then gives you a free stone for each one put into defense. (together easily justifying the +3.) Also: Stretching lets you combine it with Close Combat. This power doesn't combine, but can ONLY be used in it's place.

I have a hard time seeing a need to add extra to the cost just because it's used like any other Combat Action.

i3ullseye said:

No, this is WAY underpriced i think.

Yes, it looks that way. Based on the above (with the above changes), it looks like AN + 12 might work. Does that still sound unreasonable?

-Wayne

[i3ullseye]

Couple things....

"C'mon now, you can't be serious here, are you?

TK is used as both, and it's only a +2. Many other Combat Actions that are range 4 or better (meaning they can be used up-close or distant) are cheaper than +5: Force Blast, Force Field, Fireworks... and that's just the "F"s! I get the impression that ALL Combat Actions essentially cost the same, but you pay for the extra "features". Force Blast has no extra frills, and so no extra cost. Force Field lets you extend it to protect others, blocks Armor Penetration, and then gives you a free stone for each one put into defense. (together easily justifying the +3.) Also: Stretching lets you combine it with Close Combat. This power doesn't combine, but can ONLY be used in it's place.

I have a hard time seeing a need to add extra to the cost just because it's used like any other Combat Action."

No, these are not used as ranged combat, per se. They are used as their own action. As soon as you say you can use it INSTEAD of close or ranged combat, then that character need never spend points on close or ranged combat ranks.

But lets look at Telekinesis. It IS only a +2, but it can not do everything normal strength applied can. To make it truly like close combat it needs to have a stat bonus. Well, TK gives us one at a discount of +2. This brings us to +4. And with close combat you can always use a weapon to add its bonus, telekinesis can not, so this is another +1 we have to add. This brings us right back to that +5, even with the discount on the attribute bonus. And this is NOT ranged combat, this is close combat usable at range.

Whats the difference?

Ranged combat is done first when actions get close, so Telekinesis goes during the melee action phase, where an energy blast goes during the ranged combat phase if 2 opponents are trying to outgun each other.

And COMBINING stones with close combat is +2, and is WEAKER than using an ability in lieu of close or ranged combat. When you combine your actions are pretty much set in stone. You are doing the attack and the combat, and nothing else. If you could use the power in Lieu of close combat, you could move... attack... shapeshift... etc... and STILL use another action on top of all this.

Certainly worth +5 at least.


So even with the caveat that you can not do exact personal replicas, or heal your own damage away, i still see this into the +18 range. It is just too versatile and open to abuse. It woudl become that one power you coudl dump into at AR 10 and your whole character would be self sufficient off of it, like Cosmic Power or Phoenix Force. Both of those are +13 and still have a pretty defined set of limitations on their use. Neither of them have an ability bonus nor can they be used in Lieu of close combat or ranged combat.

[wayne]

i3ullseye said:

Couple things....

"C'mon now, you can't be serious here, are you?

TK is used as both, and it's only a +2. Many other Combat Actions that are range 4 or better (meaning they can be used up-close or distant) are cheaper than +5: Force Blast, Force Field, Fireworks... and that's just the "F"s! I get the impression that ALL Combat Actions essentially cost the same, but you pay for the extra "features". Force Blast has no extra frills, and so no extra cost. Force Field lets you extend it to protect others, blocks Armor Penetration, and then gives you a free stone for each one put into defense. (together easily justifying the +3.) Also: Stretching lets you combine it with Close Combat. This power doesn't combine, but can ONLY be used in it's place.

I have a hard time seeing a need to add extra to the cost just because it's used like any other Combat Action."

No, these are not used as ranged combat, per se. They are used as their own action. As soon as you say you can use it INSTEAD of close or ranged combat, then that character need never spend points on close or ranged combat ranks.

That's true, but then that's true of ANY Combat Action. Technically, if you have a Force Blast, why would you ever buy Ranged Combat? Yes, Close Combat gets you a bonus... at Range 1. So it's still not sure that you'd want it since Force Blasts work just as well up close (probably better, based on Ranged Combat's sit mods.) And while Ranged Combat gives you a Weapon Mod, it *requires* a weapon, and doesn't give you an element like Force Blast.

What I'm trying to say is, essentially, ALL Combat Actions with a range can be used as Close or Ranged Combat, just without the bonuses. Though some powers need to be explicit with it--otherwise you might get the impression that TK can only be used to lift things, rather than for direct attacks.

i3ullseye said:

But lets look at Telekinesis. It IS only a +2, but it can not do everything normal strength applied can. To make it truly like close combat it needs to have a stat bonus. Well, TK gives us one at a discount of +2. This brings us to +4. And with close combat you can always use a weapon to add its bonus, telekinesis can not, so this is another +1 we have to add. This brings us right back to that +5, even with the discount on the attribute bonus. And this is NOT ranged combat, this is close combat usable at range.

Whats the difference?

Ranged combat is done first when actions get close, so Telekinesis goes during the melee action phase, where an energy blast goes during the ranged combat phase if 2 opponents are trying to outgun each other.

But that's just it... Close Combat gets its bonus in part because its limited to range 1. TK still has a fair cost for what it does because it can be used at close or distant ranges (you don't need 2 seperate skills, you can combine the creation stones into one Action.)

Heck, even Ranged Combat itself can be used at close range, and gets a modifier for doing so. It includes a Weapon Mod instead of an Ability bonus, but its cost is still AN. The only break is that you need a weapon to make use of it. I can't remember the last time my character actually used Close Combat other than because I wanted to stay "in character." His RC is much stronger, and gives a sit mod for point-blank shots.

(BTW - keep in mind that CC only allows the Weapon Mod OR the Ability bonus, not both together. It seemed to me as if they were giving you a bonus, but tossed in the ability to switch that bonus between the Ability or a weapon for free.)

i3ullseye said:

And COMBINING stones with close combat is +2, and is WEAKER than using an ability in lieu of close or ranged combat. When you combine your actions are pretty much set in stone. You are doing the attack and the combat, and nothing else. If you could use the power in Lieu of close combat, you could move... attack... shapeshift... etc... and STILL use another action on top of all this.1

Certainly worth +5 at least.

Again, I disagree, in that ALL ranged Combat Actions can literally be used in lieu of Close or Ranged Combat. By this reasoning, a simple Force Blast should be costed at +5 just because it is a seperate Action.

Also... why would you think combining is weaker? Being able to combine is just as versatile (since few Combat powers require you to combine with a Combat Action, and can hence be used seperately,) plus it allows you to throw stones together for a reduced cost. Buying Force Blast at level 5 and Ranged Combat at level 5 is MUCH cheaper than just buying Force Blast (in lieu of CC and RC) at level 10... even if Force Blast was +2, if it could combine, then for the same 15 stones you could have Force Blast at level 7, RC at level 5 still, and be able to put out more effort. (Again, while still being able to use them seperately at will.)

i3ullseye said:

So even with the caveat that you can not do exact personal replicas, or heal your own damage away, i still see this into the +18 range. It is just too versatile and open to abuse. It woudl become that one power you coudl dump into at AR 10 and your whole character would be self sufficient off of it, like Cosmic Power or Phoenix Force. Both of those are +13 and still have a pretty defined set of limitations on their use. Neither of them have an ability bonus nor can they be used in Lieu of close combat or ranged combat.

Well, I went over the "in lieu of" part....

But seriously, how are you viewing this power? It's nowhere close to Power Cosmic or Phoenix Force, yet so far it's nearly the same in cost!

You can't use it to generate any type of energy. You can't use it to alter opponents, or their stats (well, I guess for grappling it can be used to grab them.) You can't turn invisible (you can try to blend into backgrounds, but you'd likely be fighting a simple Concentration-based look around the room.) You can't give yourself Toughness or Targeting, or any form of free stones. You can't grow or shrink. You can't teleport, phase, survive a vacuum, manipulate space, read minds, alter any Ability besides Strength, and so on.

I gave the power to a villain in one of our games. This was back before I edited it. I gave the guy the Agility bonus, the No Improvement disadvantage, and the Accelerated Healing Factor for free. Trying to keep him within the 40-stone range, I still wound up only able to give him Morphing at level 6 or so (he also had an Agility of 3 or 4, if I recall.) I think I even fudged it and gave him a -1 to the cost just so he'd be viable. He had neither Close nor Ranged Combat for backup.

My players made mincemeat out of him. (Actually, ONE player did--with punches that were level 9 at most, if I remember correctly.)

Let me ask, what sorts of abuses are you foreseeing with this power? Maybe I'm missing something.

-Wayne

[i3ullseye]

Seeing some of the posts here, it seems your whole game is a bit over powered. So of course they made mincemeat of one character. But again... you are trying to lessen the importance of Close and Ranged combat. They are purposely costed less than they shoudl be as basic abilities. But lets look at this again...

"(BTW - keep in mind that CC only allows the Weapon Mod OR the Ability bonus, not both together. It seemed to me as if they were giving you a bonus, but tossed in the ability to switch that bonus between the Ability or a weapon for free.)"

Correct. So your idea of a weapon mod AND an ability bonus is again more excessive than typical combat skills, They are either/or. If you want it to be your ability AND the weapon, the action itself clearly states you then need to pay for it. So by your own statement your Morphing is superior to Close or Ranged combat considerably.

Now with JUST stretching you rely on Close Combat. You put in your points to stretch and then make your attack... but have you read stretching closely? You LOSE STRENGTH as you stretch. So not only do you have to buy Close Combat, not only do you need to use Stretching as one of your actions and Close Combat as the other... limiting your actions to JUST those 2, but you can not even apply full strength.

By your construction... 5 stones into morphing lets you stretch 5 and apply full 5 stones of damage to target. this is excessive. Stretching is expensive and has many limitations built in, but your ability is not nearly aslimited and you want it for cheaper than the base abilities it is based on basically.

You see this things in one way, and your game seems to be a bit higher powered so we may never see eye to eye. but I am merely pointing out that when you really deconstruct these abilities, your power is vastly underpriced.

And yes, using an action in place of close combat is WAY more powerful than combining it with close combat. Why? Because combining restricts you to JUST those 2 actions. you are completely committed to it. But with an action that can be used AS close combat you can dump your stones into the effect of your power and still make that attack. Let me break this principle down.

Character A has Teleportation at 5, and Close Combat at 5.

They have trained themselves to do rapid teleportation to hit their opponent from suprise and use their velocity for more effect. So they can combine their stones for greater effect. Say close combat has an agility bonus (agility 5) so this allows them to assign up to 15 stones to an attack! They put 5 into teleport, they put 10 into close combat and wham! Use them all to attack their apponent with a flurry resulting in 15 stones of attack.

But... this is ALL they can do.

If the oponent is over 30 feet away they have to assign 3 of these stones to reach him. And then another 3 stones to return to his point of origin. So this leaves 9 stones of attack throguh close combat. He possibly could not do it because he only has Teleport at 5, and needs 2 ports of 3 stones each.

Now if this character had Teleport he could use instead of combat, AND with an ability bonus, there is no reason to spend stones on Close Combat. So they can have Teleport 10, with an agility bonus of 5. Still have the upper limit of 15 stones overall.

But now this cahracter can go a range of ANYWHERE ON EARTH. They can do this 3 stone jump 5 times in a panel, and can apply their full stones into an attack at the same time. This is MUCH more potent.

To do this? Teleport needs to be bought higher... expensive... and you need to spend +5 for an ability modifer and we have to come up with a viable cost for using it in Lieu of Close Combat. This makes it WAY more expensive for what you can do with it.

And it should be.

[wayne]

i3ullseye said:

Seeing some of the posts here, it seems your whole game is a bit over powered. So of course they made mincemeat of one character. But again... you are trying to lessen the importance of Close and Ranged combat. They are purposely costed less than they shoudl be as basic abilities. But lets look at this again...

"(BTW - keep in mind that CC only allows the Weapon Mod OR the Ability bonus, not both together. It seemed to me as if they were giving you a bonus, but tossed in the ability to switch that bonus between the Ability or a weapon for free.)"

Correct. So your idea of a weapon mod AND an ability bonus is again more excessive than typical combat skills, They are either/or. If you want it to be your ability AND the weapon, the action itself clearly states you then need to pay for it. So by your own statement your Morphing is superior to Close or Ranged combat considerably.

I'm still confused. Morphing doesn't have a Weapon Mod attached.

i3ullseye said:

Now with JUST stretching you rely on Close Combat. You put in your points to stretch and then make your attack... but have you read stretching closely? You LOSE STRENGTH as you stretch. So not only do you have to buy Close Combat, not only do you need to use Stretching as one of your actions and Close Combat as the other... limiting your actions to JUST those 2, but you can not even apply full strength.

By your construction... 5 stones into morphing lets you stretch 5 and apply full 5 stones of damage to target. this is excessive. Stretching is expensive and has many limitations built in, but your ability is not nearly aslimited and you want it for cheaper than the base abilities it is based on basically.

Again though, Morphing has from the start required an extra stone of effort per stone of distance stretched. You do lose some power as you "reach", effectively. 5 stones into Morphing lets you do 5 stones of damage up close, or 4 stones at range 2, or 3 stones at range 3, or 2 stones at range 4.

i3ullseye said:

You see this things in one way, and your game seems to be a bit higher powered so we may never see eye to eye. but I am merely pointing out that when you really deconstruct these abilities, your power is vastly underpriced.

Well, it does look like we'll have some differences. But I still don't see how none of the points I've made or changes I've put in haven't made a difference. For the price of level 1 Phoenix Force, you can get 2 levels in Morphing, with an Ability bonus. While the Morphing may be more practical just due to the level of stones allowed (as would buying TK at level 10 with an INT Bonus for the same cost,) you can just flat do more with Phoenix Force, spending up to 3 stones to manipulate space, time and matter. I still don't see how one could "abuse" 2 levels of Morphing (even with a +5 from the Ability bonus) in light of that. I'd really like to know what sort of problems you forsee with it.

i3ullseye said:

And yes, using an action in place of close combat is WAY more powerful than combining it with close combat. Why? Because combining restricts you to JUST those 2 actions. you are completely committed to it. But with an action that can be used AS close combat you can dump your stones into the effect of your power and still make that attack. Let me break this principle down.

This seems to be the biggest area of contention with the power, so I'll look at this closely.

i3ullseye said:

Character A has Teleportation at 5, and Close Combat at 5.

They have trained themselves to do rapid teleportation to hit their opponent from suprise and use their velocity for more effect. So they can combine their stones for greater effect. Say close combat has an agility bonus (agility 5) so this allows them to assign up to 15 stones to an attack! They put 5 into teleport, they put 10 into close combat and wham! Use them all to attack their apponent with a flurry resulting in 15 stones of attack.

But... this is ALL they can do.

If the oponent is over 30 feet away they have to assign 3 of these stones to reach him. And then another 3 stones to return to his point of origin. So this leaves 9 stones of attack throguh close combat. He possibly could not do it because he only has Teleport at 5, and needs 2 ports of 3 stones each.

Now if this character had Teleport he could use instead of combat, AND with an ability bonus, there is no reason to spend stones on Close Combat. So they can have Teleport 10, with an agility bonus of 5. Still have the upper limit of 15 stones overall.

But now this cahracter can go a range of ANYWHERE ON EARTH. They can do this 3 stone jump 5 times in a panel, and can apply their full stones into an attack at the same time. This is MUCH more potent.

Yes, but if you both gave the Teleport the Ability bonus at +2 (like Morphing did), and required a +2 for it to combine with CC, the cost still makes it balanced.

Teleport Lv. 5 (AN + 2, +2 for combining = AN + 4 = 9 CL = 12 stones)
CC Lv. 5 (AN = 5 = 3 stones)
TOTAL COST: 15 white stones

Teleport Lv. 10, w/ Ability bonus (AN + 2, +2 for Bonus = AN + 4 = 14 CL)
TOTAL COST: 35 white stones

So yes, the teleport alone would be more "potent", but would cost 20 stones more for the same level of effect! Both forms let you hit an opponent 2 stones away for 11 stones of damage.

Yes, the combined version gives you the option of hitting an opponent 5 stones away for 5 stones of damage, or of throwing a 5-stone and then a 6-stone attack at the opponent 2 stones away. But at an extra cost of 20 stones, it had better! (And that hasn't even factored in a +1 or more for the capacity to use Teleport as CC.)

i3ullseye said:

To do this? Teleport needs to be bought higher... expensive... and you need to spend +5 for an ability modifer and we have to come up with a viable cost for using it in Lieu of Close Combat. This makes it WAY more expensive for what you can do with it.

And it should be.

Paying a simple +2 for the Ability bonus (which would seem a bit cheap for Teleport) already raises the cost by 20 stones. But again, look at a power that already lets you use it as CC: Telekinesis. It costs the SAME as Teleport. And only has +2 for a fits-the-power Ability bonus. We've just seen that buying it at a higher cost with the Ability bonus to get the same effect as buying it to combine with CC is much more expensive.

But what I seem to understand is that you'd want to force a player to pay a full +5, and then STILL pay extra for Telekinesis itself? If you don't like TK, let's take a power like Mastery of Fire with the Force Blast and Create/Manipulate options (so it still costs +2 yet can be used up close and personal.) If you would want to charge a full +5 for the Ability bonus, I can see that. But you'd THEN want to charge extra for being able to throw a Fire Blast at range 1? To what advantage?

As it stands, I'd never buy a use-as-CC Teleport with only a +2 Ability bonus attached, at least not at level 10 with the plan of dumping 15 stones into it. The cost is just too much... who would do that, instead of simply supplementing it with Concentration? And who would even touch it if the Ability bonus was +5 and Teleport cost +3 or +4 itself?

(As it stands, I don't know how many people would be that interested in buying Morphing at +12. It could be fun, but you'd have to make some serious sacrifices to even make your character viable. Again though, if you'd give some concrete examples of the sorts of abuses someone could throw out with the power, as currently detailed, maybe I'd 'get it.')

-Wayne

[i3ullseye]

The +2 cost for an ability bonus is the exception, not the rule. It should be rare. Teleport (and almsot everything else) should pay +5. Not the +2 discounted price. I am not sure why you always calculate things based on the +2.

Combining WITH Close Combat is a +2 add. This is pretty easy. But to use this instead of CC is not easily costed. And certainly it will be higher than the +2.

The Mastery of Fire example is incorrect. Once you have the fire blast you CAN use it from point blank to your full range. I am not saying pay extra to use it at range 1, any power with ANY range can be used at lower than its full range unless there is another limitation on it.

And maybe it is me, but I think this illustrates our basic difference here...

"As it stands, I'd never buy a use-as-CC Teleport with only a +2 Ability bonus attached, at least not at level 10 with the plan of dumping 15 stones into it. The cost is just too much... who would do that, instead of simply supplementing it with Concentration? And who would even touch it if the Ability bonus was +5 and Teleport cost +3 or +4 itself?"

But for what they want to do they SHOUDL pay for it that way. You are trying to get the most effect for your points (min/max) where I am trying to cost it fiarly as a GM. And my NPCs will also be bought using my cost scales, so it is in no way unfair to the characters. The idea is that things SHOULD cost a lot if they are very effective.

Otherwise everyone is Magneto or Silver Surfer. We need to keep the Jubilees and Cyclopses viable.

Would YOU make a character with a 9 stone uncontrollable optic blast and little other ability? The character is more important than the stones cost, and the system shoudl be as simple as possible, which by default makes things more expensive and keeps the power level lower than not.

[wayne]

i3ullseye said:

The +2 cost for an ability bonus is the exception, not the rule. It should be rare. Teleport (and almsot everything else) should pay +5. Not the +2 discounted price. I am not sure why you always calculate things based on the +2.

I know, +2 just seems to be the cost when the power makes sense with the Action (Telepathy, TK, Psychiatry.) I only was applying it to Teleport to compare the cost equally with Morphing--personally, I'd say Teleport would require +5 too, I just think Morphing can justify a +2. YMMV on that point.

i3ullseye said:

Combining WITH Close Combat is a +2 add. This is pretty easy. But to use this instead of CC is not easily costed. And certainly it will be higher than the +2.

If you're talking about powers, like Invisibility, that don't seem to normally be offensive in the first place, I'd say +2 would (usually) be enough to cover it. Again, the increased cost of one Action for +4 at Level 10 over two Actions (one at AN, one at +4) at Level 5 each makes up for it.

i3ullseye said:

The Mastery of Fire example is incorrect. Once you have the fire blast you CAN use it from point blank to your full range. I am not saying pay extra to use it at range 1, any power with ANY range can be used at lower than its full range unless there is another limitation on it.

I'm sorry then, I thought you were saying that in regards to using *all* powers at Close Combat range. I think part of our disagreement is that you're still looking at Morphing as a simple collection of abilities, whereas my idea was that once you've got those elements together, the synthesis results in something that is automatically capable of offensive usage. If you can morph your body into nearly any shape immediately at will, it just makes sense to me that you can shoot a blade-shaped tendril, or whatever, of your person at a target for direct damage.

i3ullseye said:

And maybe it is me, but I think this illustrates our basic difference here...

"As it stands, I'd never buy a use-as-CC Teleport with only a +2 Ability bonus attached, at least not at level 10 with the plan of dumping 15 stones into it. The cost is just too much... who would do that, instead of simply supplementing it with Concentration? And who would even touch it if the Ability bonus was +5 and Teleport cost +3 or +4 itself?"

But for what they want to do they SHOUDL pay for it that way.

Are you saying they should pay for it at high cost, or they should pay for it with one Action instead of using Concentration to supplement? I agree that if someone wanted "Combat Teleport" at Level 10, they should be willing to pay at least 14 cost levels for it, more for an Ability bonus. But I wouldn't think that using Concentration as a means of getting a full 10 stones into the Action should be off-limits, or even out of character.

i3ullseye said:

You are trying to get the most effect for your points (min/max) where I am trying to cost it fiarly as a GM. And my NPCs will also be bought using my cost scales, so it is in no way unfair to the characters. The idea is that things SHOULD cost a lot if they are very effective.

Yes, effective powers should cost more, especially if the player wants a high Action Number. But how does that mean Morphing, as currently detailed, should be +18?

If you only point at the cost of the Ability bonus, and make the case that it should be +5 instead of +2, I can understand arguments in that direction. If I was convinced, that would just mean I'd personally price Morphing at +10 without a Bonus, +15 with one. But I don't see where you're still getting +18 from... even if that includes a +5 Ability Bonus, that's essentially saying that 1 level in Morphing, without a Bonus, warrants the same cost as 1 level in Phoenix Force or Power Cosmic!

That's what I don't get... how can those three all be considered to be in the same catagory of strength? A level 1 in Morphing is, for all practical purposes, useless, and definitely not worth 35 stones. The most exciting things you could do would be grow wings and attempt to hover away (which you couldn't do, since you'd need to pay 2 stones per panel just to stay afloat), fit through somewhat-small openings, change your appearance minimally, etc. You couldn't even hit anyone at range 2! (Well, you could, but then you'd do 0 damage.)

The Phoenix Force at level 1 lets you do all that (with ACTUAL flight), and tons more, and then throws in 2 free stones per panel to use with it for greater effect!

i3ullseye said:

Otherwise everyone is Magneto or Silver Surfer. We need to keep the Jubilees and Cyclopses viable.

Would YOU make a character with a 9 stone uncontrollable optic blast and little other ability? The character is more important than the stones cost, and the system shoudl be as simple as possible, which by default makes things more expensive and keeps the power level lower than not.

Well, that's just it. Magneto is well over 100 stones, and Silver Surfer has the Power Cosmic at level 9.

How does, say, 6 stones of Morphing (level 1 at +12, with 5 from the INT Bonus), which is the bulk of the character's cost, minimize other possible creations using 40 stones? For the same 33 stones that that would cost--counting the cost of the INT itself--I can get Telekinesis at level 10, with an INT Bonus, AND a Weapon Mod, and be able to put 15 stones into it plus the weapon. Or a level 10 elemental Force Blast, with Targeting at +6 (or other options of your choice.) Or even Mastery of Air at level 9, with Create/Manip, Force Blast, and Force Field. What makes Morphing worse (especially when compared to a Mastery)?

(I'm *begging* you for some examples of potential abuse. Not only would it help clarify your concerns, but if there's some specific issue, I could use a heads-up before my other players get ahold of this.)

-Wayne

[i3ullseye]

Ok, potential abuse.

Morphing at +12 cost, with an intelligence bonus.
Can't be improved by lines brings it to +10. Rank 1 costs 20 stones.

9 stones of Intelligence costs 12 white, and is the basis for energy.

Now for 32 stones he has rank 10 morphing and has 18 stones of energy, more than enough to power it completely, or even combine it with something else for more effort.

What does this 10 stones do?

Shapeshift 10
Metamorphosis 10
Stretching 10
Gain Strength of 10
Gain Agility 10
Gain Speed 10
Close Combat 10
Flight 5

Not to mention the possibility of other neat tricks that may be allowed like a tendril whip or organic weapons like claws.

What is the cost of all these seperate?

Shapeshift 10 costs 30 white
Metamorphosis 10 costs 45 white
Stretching 10 costs 40 white
Gain Strength of 10 costs 15 white
Gain Agility 10 costs 15 white
Gain Speed 10 costs 15 white
Close Combat 10 costs 15 white
Flight 5 costs 6 white

Thats a total of 181 white stones of effect.
And with metamorphosis you can make ANY physical action or modifier or ability a rank 10. So for every 1 red stone spend on a rank 1 ability you can turn it into a 10 stone effect.

And that -1 cost break on Toughness? That makes it a +2 modifer, so it costs only 1 white stone for rank 1.... which can be turned into a rank 10 toughness.

1 White for tendril whip... BAM rank 10 with reassignment of stones.

2 white for unstoppable at 1... BAM it is now unstoppable 10.

1 red wallcrawling 10

1 red web-slinging 10

1 red animal senses 10

Etc......

Oh yes, this can be very easily abused.

[wayne]

i3ullseye said:

Ok, potential abuse.

Morphing at +12 cost, with an intelligence bonus.
Can't be improved by lines brings it to +10. Rank 1 costs 20 stones.

9 stones of Intelligence costs 12 white, and is the basis for energy.

Now for 32 stones he has rank 10 morphing and has 18 stones of energy, more than enough to power it completely, or even combine it with something else for more effort.

What does this 10 stones do?

Shapeshift 10
Metamorphosis 10
Stretching 10
Gain Strength of 10
Gain Agility 10
Gain Speed 10
Close Combat 10
Flight 5

Not to mention the possibility of other neat tricks that may be allowed like a tendril whip or organic weapons like claws.

What is the cost of all these seperate?

Shapeshift 10 costs 30 white
Metamorphosis 10 costs 45 white
Stretching 10 costs 40 white
Gain Strength of 10 costs 15 white
Gain Agility 10 costs 15 white
Gain Speed 10 costs 15 white
Close Combat 10 costs 15 white
Flight 5 costs 6 white

Thats a total of 181 white stones of effect.
And with metamorphosis you can make ANY physical action or modifier or ability a rank 10. So for every 1 red stone spend on a rank 1 ability you can turn it into a 10 stone effect.

And that -1 cost break on Toughness? That makes it a +2 modifer, so it costs only 1 white stone for rank 1.... which can be turned into a rank 10 toughness.

1 White for tendril whip... BAM rank 10 with reassignment of stones.
2 white for unstoppable at 1... BAM it is now unstoppable 10.
1 red wallcrawling 10
1 red web-slinging 10
1 red animal senses 10
Etc......
Oh yes, this can be very easily abused.

...

I think I see the problem.

I pointed out that Strength is the only alterable attribute. I approached that problem from the start when I thought up the power.

I also clarified that in no way can you get free stones from your actions. In other words:

No Claws or Toughness (or Unstoppable, or Force Field, or Animal Senses, or anything else gaining double damage, automatic safety from falling damage, free stones, Armor Penetration, etc.) You could do acts similar to Tendril Whip, but not get a +1 for the appendage, plus you'd need to pay 1 stone per stone of range extended (not to mention 1 stone per panel if you were wanting to keep the new form.)

Now, some GMs might "let" the player do something to gain extra powers, but that just strikes me as absurd... if it costs +5 to get a Weapon Mod, why should a GM allow any amount of trickery to whip one up on the fly? That's kinda like having a Mastery of Ice with Create/Manip (a +1 option), but then having your GM let you use it like Psi-Weapon. What would be the point then of having Psi-Weapon, or for that matter most of the other Mastery options?

Again, the power ISN'T Metamorphosis. The only element borrowed from that power is the few "aspects" needed to justify bodily deformation. While you could mimic some basic physical Actions (as a number of powers let you do), you can't create new Actions on the fly, other than to reproduce the explicit Flight. Being able to do so would definitely bump the cost up by +3 or so. As with anything, players should be encouraged to get creative. But where's the point in letting them get free stones when the book clearly shows the costs (and the power explicitly denies it?)

Even at that, you seem to misunderstand Metamorphosis. If you have an 8 in the power, you can't put one red stone into a pre-existant item, say Tendril Whip, and one into a new item, Toughness, and suddenly have them both at level 8:

"Temporarily change one or more physical Ability, Action or Modifier by 1 stone for each stone played. (Exception: It takes 3 stones to increase your Durability by 1.)"

So the best you'd wind up doing would be spending 8 stones to bump each of them up by 4. Husk has Metamorphosis at level 8. The example the book gives shows she needs to put a full 8 stones into it to gain Toughness of level 8 (with a free appearance change.) It also shows their miswording--you move each ability/action/whatever one LEVEL per stone played. (This is confirmed by the other example they have using her.)

So even if Morphing worked just like Metamorphosis--which it doesn't--you'd still have to put in the full number of stones to get a change of a certain level. Again though, since Morphing isn't full Metamorphosis, even that is moot.

(The Wall-Crawling and Web-Slinging are noteworthy--although trying to Web-Sling would yield difficulties. I'll have to look into these two further.

Also, your example is a little off... an Intelligence of 9 that is also the source of your energy costs 24 stones, not 12. So for a total of 44 stones, one has Morphing essentially at 10, level 9 Intelligence-Energy, and 1's in a handful of other stats. Ick. That seems "tweakish", but I've seen that same approach used with other powers, and it seems to have its own built-in limitations, so... I still don't see how Morphing--given the limitations I've specified--is any worse than those. In fact, it's those powers that it was meant to be comparable to, not Phoenix Force.

The same cost of 44 stones gets you Telekinesis at level 10, with the INT Bonus, a Weapon Mod, No Improvement, and the same Intelligence deal. Or an omnipresent Mastery, like of Air, at level 3, with Create/Manip, Force Blast, Force Field, No Improvement, a +5 INT Bonus, and the same Intelligence deal. Hex-Spheres, Telepathy, Metamorphosis itself, most Masteries, and even a few of the Modifier-based Powers all also yield similar levels of utility, for a similar {or lessened!} cost.

So the Ability bonus seems to be something we'll just disagree on. Others with similar concerns could drop it and let the power stand for +10 without, since I costed them at about +2. Or bring the cost up to +15, or just allow an Agility bonus, but not Intelligence--which I can see a strong case for. But unless the GM is lenient, I don't see how the limits of the power can let it be abused at its current cost. With the possible exceptions of alternative forms of movement, which I'll look into, although I don't see anything else competing strongly with Flight.)

-Wayne

[i3ullseye]

Good catch on the intelligence cost. I forgot about that when typing it up.

But the single red stone items being bumped to a high rank, even if you can only bump one at a time, becomes excessive. If the power can not do this then remove Metamorphosis form the description. Both Shapeshifting and Stretching cover everything else without opening up a can of worms.

If you were to recreate this form the gorund up, and state explicitly what it can do, and not leave it open... the cost coudl be reasonable. How woudl i do it?

I would add elements to Stretching, because that is all thats really going on here.

Stretching A# +5 base
--can combine with close combat +2
--can shapeshift, but not make exact duplicates +2
--web slinging +1
--can substitute power for strength +1
--can substitute power for agility +1

This brings us to +12. Very reasonable and very powerful overall. Tac on can not improve by lines and we are at +10.

I dont like using an ability bonus on any power that can replace an ability itself. So if it can be used AS strength, it probably is better not to let it also add your own original strength.

Expensive? yeah. But still very powerful in its own right. I think it needs to have extra limitations applied to make it more affordable, or you start at only 1 or 2 stones and then increase it with lines. Most powers this versatile are this way, it is better to see growth of the character over time than make it too powerful up front.

And think about what you get for 10 lines of experience in this compared to say 10 lines in flight or close combat.

[psistrike]

Seeing the new write-up on this power and all the feedback on it to get it to this current version I've got to say I'm impressed. Using this action and Shape Shifting you could partially replicate the Martian Manhunter fromt the Justice League TV series now. ;D