By Grapthar's Hammer, would somemod lock this thread, please?
pgholland, vicsage, you're both being ridiculous.
Vicsage: You're probably right, this action is no good for highly specialized SWAT members. However, it does encompass the skills possessed by many police officers and generic SWAT members, and is fitting for those characters. Your argument boils down to specialization, and those characters that are highly specialized might want to take Cop at a low level and other, more specialized actions at a higher level. That, or overlook Cop entirely, to more accurately represent their skills. It was never meant to represent elite, highly-specialized individuals, just a general, overall representation of "cop stuff".
pgholland: I see your point - that characters who are better at certain skills merely specialize and gain sit.mods when performing those skills. But your argument is flawed in many places, and even were it perfect, it still can't make it work in the more extreme cases that vicsage is looking for.
Now for the love of Iron Man, grow up, please. Both of you.
My last post on this thread: Cop Action doesn't work because no cops are trained in such a broad spectrum as to include all those options, and everyone seems to overlook the fact that nowhere in the book does it say that if you haven't taken the specialization you can't use it. "Specializations" are merely ways to individualize character sheets so they don't all look the same. The Action itself covers everything listed as a possible specialization. Therefore, if your beat cop or SWAT team member has Cop Action: 5, even with a negative SitMod from a GM, you'll suddenly be a Negotiator at 4, or a Profiler at 4 (somehow bypassing years and years of FBI training), which is utterly ridiculous even by comic book standards. The only way around it is to have a GM say you can only use the specializations you've listed (which is not how the game works), but that means the new Action is badly flawed.
Last Edit: Aug 31, 2006 16:31:20 GMT -5 by vicsage
My last post on this thread: Cop Action doesn't work because no cops are trained in such a broad spectrum as to include all those options,
There are basic police skills, though. Perhaps the things included in this Action are too specific for your taste, but that's fine. You're allowed your opinion on this.
and everyone seems to overlook the fact that nowhere in the book does it say that if you haven't taken the specialization you can't use it. "Specializations" are merely ways to individualize character sheets so they don't all look the same.
Not true. I'm well aware of "the fact". However, the book DOES say that those specializations sometimes (or often) negate negative sit.mods, or grant positive sit.mods. Therefore, taking specialties can give the illusion of being trained more specifically than the AN might indicate.
Similarly, I'd apply negative sit.mods to any character trying to use it for more specialized uses (like profiling) that just barely fall under the action, but in which they are not specifically trained.
That may not be good enough for what you're looking for, but it's good enough for some of us.
The Action itself covers everything listed as a possible specialization. Therefore, if your beat cop or SWAT team member has Cop Action: 5, even with a negative SitMod from a GM, you'll suddenly be a Negotiator at 4, or a Profiler at 4 (somehow bypassing years and years of FBI training), which is utterly ridiculous even by comic book standards. The only way around it is to have a GM say you can only use the specializations you've listed (which is not how the game works), but that means the new Action is badly flawed.
This boils down to the fact that your opinion is it's unrealistic for a single police officer to be equally proficient at all of those things simultaneously.
PCs are supposed to be good. Better than good, they're supposed to be super. If being a cop is part of their schtick, I don't see any reason why they couldn't be a supercop, and be unrealistic in the process. Personally, I find Aquaman to be more unrealistic than somebody who's simply able to do many law-enforcement-related actions and do them well.
Besides, if you don't like the way it works, fix it yourself. Take out some of the potential uses to make it more limiting. Note that if you remove the suggested uses/specialties that offend you (Profiling, interrogation, negotiation, stakeout, animal handling, or any others you please), it may begin to fall more in line with your expectations. I think. I'm really not sure what you're expecting.
If you really dislike it that much, you could just plain not use it.
Last Edit: Aug 31, 2006 22:51:46 GMT -5 by vicsage
Post by piratespice on Sept 2, 2006 16:56:02 GMT -5
Vicsage, there is a very simple solution to the problem you see. I think that you agree that all cops get at least some basic training in the areas this Action covers, right? So, the average cop (if he has this Action at all) will probably have Cop at AN 1 or 2...maybe even 3 for a veteran. Beyond that, they're likely to have the other Actions that cover their area of expertise more specifically (e.g. SWAT sniper has Ranged Combat, profiler has Psychiatry and Social Skills, patrolman has Vehicle Operation, etc.), and simply combine those Action with Cop when appropriate.
That being said, this is still very open to the "supercop" option, which is very appropriate to superheroic characters. But also do yourself a favor, and take a look at every General Action in the book, not just Ninja. They are all far more broad than any single person would ever possess. Look at the Specialization lists for Black Ops, Thieving, Social Skills, General Knowledge, and so on. In no case would any one person be capable of everything covered by a single General Skill Action. But it's the nature of MURPG to handle things in broad strokes. It isn't a game of specifics, its a game of generalizations that lend themselves to the semi-freeform style of gaming that emulates comic book style storytelling.
Agree 100%... I think it's a good action. I found it somewhat underpriced when I first saw it because ninja was at +7, but then I remembered that ninja also had a second weapon modifier. The way I think the system is made, it makes sense for an broad spectrum action to be created. The specialized skills issue seems a bit out of this world. Perhaps it's not the most realistic way to represent the skills of an individual, but it's the way with most skills in the marvel system. There are a thousand other things that are WAY more unrealistic then a cop being equaly competent in negotiation and close combat, and a thousand more to break the system as it is. So I don't see the point in having an argument about an action that seems to be perfectly in concept with the system, except for the cost of it and the specialties.
Last Edit: Sept 3, 2006 11:30:25 GMT -5 by vicsage