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Post by seadog on Jul 17, 2007 17:30:33 GMT -5
Not quite. Instant Healing Factor means you're never below full health at the beginning of every panel. Thought the two were one in the same. If you cannot be below full health at the beginning of each panel, you gain the maximum stones back a panel, unless I misread something somewhere. It is merely a stipulation of wording here. The original person said that you are never below full health. This isn't true. You can drop health and even be killed during a panel. If you survive the damage during the panel, then you regenerate your full health. It is possible to be at less than full health, but only untill the end of the panel.
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Post by thanos on Jul 17, 2007 19:50:30 GMT -5
Go look up the definitions of the two words, it might help. No need to insult people's intelligence here thanos. Just make your point and leave the insults at home. I went and looked them up myself, so if it is an insult, its double on my head. I wanted to make sure that there was no correlation whatsoever between how the two words could be used. AE doesn't say anything about a per panel bonus like Healing Factors specifically do. Normal energy regeneration is the method in which the stones can be built up, but they are Extra Stones as in Extra Capacity. They are not Extra Stones as in higher regeneration. I see how it can be mistaken for such, however, it lacks the follow up that other options and modifiers do such as Drain Energy's description of the Improved Drain under its Rules Section. dionon, Look at "Increase Action Number Modifier" ie Preparation (bottom right, pg 63) and you will see that it specifies 'Free Stones' and how to get them. Accumulate Energy is not the same thing.
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Post by thanos on Jul 17, 2007 19:51:34 GMT -5
Thought the two were one in the same. If you cannot be below full health at the beginning of each panel, you gain the maximum stones back a panel, unless I misread something somewhere. It is merely a stipulation of wording here. The original person said that you are never below full health. This isn't true. You can drop health and even be killed during a panel. If you survive the damage during the panel, then you regenerate your full health. It is possible to be at less than full health, but only untill the end of the panel. This is a different discussion that has its own thread. Throwing in IHF into this will only confuse the issue further.
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Post by Brainstem on Jul 17, 2007 20:13:15 GMT -5
Stopping this before it becomes bad... Scriptus and Thanos, don't let the discussion escalate into name calling (which it may get to). You both are smart guys, I'm sure, so don't go overboard with the condescending tones and all. Part of the reason we've got this section is the board is to clear up misunderstandings, not to yell at people (figuratively...) for not having the same understanding.
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Post by seadog on Jul 17, 2007 20:19:33 GMT -5
It is merely a stipulation of wording here. The original person said that you are never below full health. This isn't true. You can drop health and even be killed during a panel. If you survive the damage during the panel, then you regenerate your full health. It is possible to be at less than full health, but only untill the end of the panel. This is a different discussion that has its own thread. Throwing in IHF into this will only confuse the issue further. I pulled that quote from this thread, not a different thread. I was simply trying to clarify a misunderstanding that was brought up here. And I don't really know what IHF means.
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Post by Brainstem on Jul 17, 2007 20:47:58 GMT -5
IHF is Instant Healing Factor. And don't worry about it, seadog. I'm all for having questions answered that pertain somewhat to the topic at hand (it can be a lot easier than creating a whole new thread that may include a question that's been answered a bunch of times already). The definition of what makes a panel is changed a lot throughout the book, so it's all up to interpretation.
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Post by malice on Jul 18, 2007 0:06:28 GMT -5
If the Accumulate Energy didn't enhance regeneration, I don't really understand why it would use the word "regenerate". Furthermore, assuming your interpretation were correct, I believe Increase Action Number advantage would be redundant even if working differently. It doesn't sound unreasonable that a mage would be able to recover more stones per panel, especially considering that they have to spend every other one in preparation if they plan on using the Mastery of Magic action.
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Post by Scriptus on Jul 18, 2007 7:50:48 GMT -5
Stopping this before it becomes bad... Scriptus and Thanos, don't let the discussion escalate into name calling (which it may get to). You both are smart guys, I'm sure, so don't go overboard with the condescending tones and all. Part of the reason we've got this section is the board is to clear up misunderstandings, not to yell at people (figuratively...) for not having the same understanding. I got you brainstem. I might have misunderstood thanos' intention with the comment. I'm sorry if I misunderstood.
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Post by terramax on Jul 18, 2007 7:53:15 GMT -5
Given the wording of the advantage, I can definitely see both view points here. It does say "regenerate extra stones", but if you look at the entire sentence, it may mean extra stones past your energy limit. It never actually defines that it is a per panel regeneration rather than a total regeneration. It does however say regenerate. To me, I still interperate this as meaning your per panel regeneration rate. Besides, it is the only thing that I can think of that increases the regeneration rate of special intelligence users.
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Post by thanos on Jul 18, 2007 11:25:06 GMT -5
AE, lets a mage go into combat with more energy in his system. Preperation is more of the ritualistic aspect of magic and allows mages to do truly monumental and long lasting things given enough time.
Dr Strange's MoM of 4 with Preperation would let him effectively cast something with 12 stones worth of effect/duration (as it is not restricted by #1). 8 of the stones would be free and 4 would come from his Energy Reserve.
Dur 5 = 9 stones. IHF = 25 stones = 34 stone total for regen of 10. Dur 7 = 18 stones. HF = 12 stones = 30 stones for 10/11 regen. Dur 6 = 12 stones. Tireless(+4CL) 5 = 12 stones = 24 stones for 11 regen
Int 7i = 12 stones: 7 regen a round MoM with AE 4 = 6 stones: 4 regen a round Energy Regen of 11 for 18 stones.
That is a 6 stone difference between regular rules and Tireless and a 6 stone difference between Tireless at +4CL and Magic.
I argue for AE being an Energy Maximum Increaser beause: #1 The wording of the rules supports it, even if it might be interpreted another way. #2 Mages need higher limits vs faster regen because they have 2 rounds to regenerate but only spend stones for magic every other panel (assuming they are using their other action to defend themselves). #3 The alternate interpretation (presented by Malice) further breaks the game with large per panel regeneration possible for little cost.
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Post by malice on Jul 18, 2007 17:48:01 GMT -5
Dur 5 = 9 stones. IHF = 25 stones = 34 stone total for regen of 10.Dur 7 = 18 stones. HF = 12 stones = 30 stones for 10/11 regen.Dur 6 = 12 stones. Tireless(+4CL) 5 = 12 stones = 24 stones for 11 regen
Int 7i = 12 stones: 7 regen a round MoM with AE 4 = 6 stones: 4 regen a round Energy Regen of 11 for 18 stones.I don't see how this is broken. Why bother comparing Tireless to Instant Healing Factor? Instant Healing Factor is the golden god of all healing factors. I'm not really on board with people who think Rapid Recovery is just as good as a normal Healing Factor, and that something which gives you the energy regeneration without the white stones regeneration is a perfect substitute. Anyone who's taken damage in MURPG knows that white stones are crucial.
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Post by thanos on Jul 19, 2007 12:48:08 GMT -5
I agree that White stones are crucial. I was just offering up the count out. If you want the healing factor on top of that, just drop the Dur to 4 for the Tireless example and add a normal Healing factor. Comes in at 22 stones. What I am saying is that at +2 or +3 CL Tireless is inexpensive enough to give give very large advantages. Where as if it is at a minimum of +4 or even +5, things look less appealing for twinkery. Alternately, for a -1CL you could make Tireless mutually exclusive with Healing Factors (ie you can have one or the other, but not both).
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Post by beryl on Jul 19, 2007 21:40:07 GMT -5
I brought it up merely as a price comparison to illustrate that giving Tireless a cost of MN+7 is excessive. At MN+7, Tireless and Instant Healing Factor cost the same and regenerate the same amount of energy, only Tireless doesn't heal your whites.
Otherwise, these two modifiers are not similar enough to compare.
Additionally, I apologize for my wording (for goodness' sake, you know what I mean >_< ). Sorry if I caused any confusion by bringing another comparison into the mix.
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Post by malice on Jul 20, 2007 2:40:32 GMT -5
While I don't feel it's too cheap, I will say that if it were too cheap, Tireless is supposed to be inexpensive, just as the similarly-intended Rapid Recovery is inexpensive. I feel like more people should have energy-focused modifiers. Most the characters made should be made with more consideration of the energy that will be required of them. I wouldn't have posted the modifier if I didn't think it was a good idea. I brought it up merely as a price comparison to illustrate that giving Tireless a cost of MN+7 is excessive. At MN+7, Tireless and Instant Healing Factor cost the same and regenerate the same amount of energy, only Tireless doesn't heal your whites. Otherwise, these two modifiers are not similar enough to compare. Additionally, I apologize for my wording (for goodness' sake, you know what I mean >_< ). Sorry if I caused any confusion by bringing another comparison into the mix. I wasn't meaning to criticize anyone specifically, so for that I apologize. I just wanted to point out that the three best healing factors (Accelerated, Enhanced, and the Masterful Instant) are in a class of their own and should never be disrespected with comparisons to things that only regenerate energy (Is it too obvious that I love those healing factors? :)).
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Post by Neros on Feb 25, 2008 15:10:44 GMT -5
Hmm.. I would say that +5 is a fair price for it.. A power that Adds free stones to something (like intelligence, is around +4 or so).. So something that can add stones to everything should cost more..
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