Evade vs. Reduce

[mako]

Something that recently (as in today) got my attention is the odd fact that, Reflexive Dodge and Toughness stack. This makes little sense to me. So I put forward an idea of mine for differentiating different stackable lists, of what should, and what shouldn't stack when determining stones.

The main difference between avoiding something, and reducing it to 0 would be the 0 still actually hit you. It may damage your costume, be used for a plot device, or may have an effect that triggers on touch, so Transform by Touch would still get you if you don't dodge it. On the other hand, it's easier to ignore avoiding things, since effects like Area Effect cancel them out.

For simplicity's sake, when actions put stones in defense, it may count for both purposes. If it could be a defense, but not listed, it either counts towards both, or it depends on the context, such as running or swimming to avoid being shot may or may not reduce damage if still hit, depending on the weapon.

Feel free to comment or add to this.

For avoiding attacks or efforts (When applicable)

Animal Senses
Cybernetic Senses
Luck (Either kind)
Photographic Reflexes
Prescience (Including Limited)
Radar Senses
Reflexive Dodge
Sonar Sense

For reducing the effect of attacks or efforts (When applicable)

Energy Defense
Invulnerability (counts as automatic reduction to 0 for relevant damage type.)
Magical Defense
Mental Defense
Toughness

[WildKnight]

Adding layers of complication will never make this system better, only worse.

[talismanhex]

It's situational. Like you stated, you can't use Reflexive Dodge against an Area Attack and Toughness won't stop Grey Gargoyle from turning you into Stone, but that's for a GM to catch. The whole stacking thing is a convenience that you generally take advantage of, like when that gunman opens fire on you. Instead of saying " Oh, I missed my dodge of 3 will my 3 Toughness work?" You say " 6 Defense, Motha!"

[thanos]

It is the GM's role to figure out the what defense works against what. Phase Attack ignores Armor, Mental Bolts ignore everything but their Int+MD, and Area Effect ignores Reflexive Dodge....etc etc. It is all situational. In addition some attacks (such as from surprise and from above) will also negate Reflexive Dodge or give a bonus that might as well ignore the Dodge/Toughness. Then again, there could be a special weapon used (such as a magic hammer against Superman ie Avengers/JLA crossover) which negates the toughness. There are SO MANY combinations that it takes a GM to actually cover them all.

Often, both Player and GM use shorthand to help them. When a Player writes in their Action they include that Phase Attack ignores Armor/Toughness. Players also tend to write out what stones go into their total defense, such as Toughness 3 (No AP), Reflexive Dodge 2, Close Combat 2, Shield 4 = 11 Defense.
Energy Defense +3
Mental Defense 11

This helps the GM know what they have where and if they get bonuses vs energy.


There is no need to come up with a list. The players know which of their characters attacks do what and what their defenses are and against what. As the GM you just have to pay attention. Each circumstance needs to be JUDGED (like the original GM was called in the original Marvel).

[Neros]

I see no reason for it either, but if you really feel that it shouldn't be as it is, you can just house rule it in your games

As said, its all about judging what should do what...

[mako]

I get it now, I needed the defense stacking phrased in a manner where it made sense to me in the thread that I got confused in. Should this thread be removed now, or left up for the list, or..?

[Brainstem]

Nah, no need to delete it. It can stay up and maybe even inspire some creativity from another to write some kind of House Rule regarding defense differentiation.

[kxjubilee]

I realize that this is a "dead" topic but I thought I would share my rule on this from my custom set.

The problem with defense in MU is that any action shifted to defense acts the same. Let's look at Jubilee and Iceman taking an area blast. Iceman's close combat is tied to his Strength and will use his strength to absorb the attack. This stacks with his Toughness if he is transformed simply because it is the same method. Jubilee however has her close combat tied to Agility, the same thing that her acrobatics is tied too. This give the impression that the fights more with gymnastics then raw power, unlike Iceman. This is the same way, more so then not, how reflective dodge works when animal senses are not present. Though based on the rules because it isn't reflective dodge Jubilee still gets to use her agility to soak the damage... ... ... We have a problem.

In order to fix this we will add two new defense categories called soak and evade in addition to Defense.

Toughness, Body Armor, Strength and Durability based actions all feed into soak. If there are options like No Armor Penetration, then these points only apply to the points from the source/sources of the option. Soak is limited by only reducing damage, not by getting out of the way so secondary affects still activate.
Example of Soak: Thing standing still taking punches form an angry person.

Reflective Dodge, Agility and Speed based Actions all feed into evade. Evade is limited by not working when the character can't move or is defending against an area attack.
Example of Evade: Spiderman flipping over a bullet shot at him by a criminal.

Intelligence based actions and actions with no base ability feed into Defense. These should hardly if ever be denied to the player.
Example of Defense: Cyclops using is Optic Beam to take an arrow out of the sky that Hawkeye just shot at him.

I hope this can help people see what I think should be done with defense even though I know it adds more to the rules it makes them easier to understand in my mind.

[thanos]

kxjubilee,

Your making a system for something that doesn't need it. Jubilee just dances out of range, does a leap off of Wolverine's shoulder to get out of the area, etc. If she takes damage, then she got clipped in the explosion, took shrapnel, etc. There are a hundred different ways to describe what happens and how it happens. The different between Superman and Wonderwoman is that he takes it on the chest and she deflects it with your wrist bands, but they both ignore the incoming machine gunfire just fine.

KISS: Keep It Short & Simple.

[serp]

Aug 20, 2007 16:48:29 GMT -5 @mako said:

Something that recently (as in today) got my attention is the odd fact that, Reflexive Dodge and Toughness stack. This makes little sense to me. So I put forward an idea of mine for differentiating different stackable lists, of what should, and what shouldn't stack when determining stones.

The main difference between avoiding something, and reducing it to 0 would be the 0 still actually hit you. It may damage your costume, be used for a plot device, or may have an effect that triggers on touch, so Transform by Touch would still get you if you don't dodge it. On the other hand, it's easier to ignore avoiding things, since effects like Area Effect cancel them out.

For simplicity's sake, when actions put stones in defense, it may count for both purposes. If it could be a defense, but not listed, it either counts towards both, or it depends on the context, such as running or swimming to avoid being shot may or may not reduce damage if still hit, depending on the weapon.

Feel free to comment or add to this.

For avoiding attacks or efforts (When applicable)

Animal Senses
Cybernetic Senses
Luck (Either kind)
Photographic Reflexes
Prescience (Including Limited)
Radar Senses
Reflexive Dodge
Sonar Sense

For reducing the effect of attacks or efforts (When applicable)

Energy Defense
Invulnerability (counts as automatic reduction to 0 for relevant damage type.)
Magical Defense
Mental Defense
Toughness

Dodge and toughness stacking makes perfect sense.

Your dodge/reflex activates before toughness/armor.

If I were to shoot at you dead in the chest for 10 and you have a dodge of 5 then that means I'd hit you, but your dodge helped you get vital organs out of the way, so I might just clip you in the arm or leg rather than the heart or lung.

I just ran my first MURPG last night and we already had that event arise, but I instantly understood how it works.

Also, Armor piercing doesn't work on Dodge, you should make it a house rule to keep dodge and armor in seperate pools of defense.

It does make it slightly more complex, but it also makes more sense and is more fun/balanced.