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Post by piratespice on Mar 7, 2006 15:36:51 GMT -5
Okay, this subject has been brought up countless times, and we typically come to the conclusion that it would be too much trouble to alter the rules. The subject is the matter of seperating attack stones from damage stones. A lot of people take issue with the fact that attack and damage are the same thing in MURPG. To speak even more broadly, effort and effect are the same thing (it just comes up most often in combat).
It occured to me that there may be a simple way to address this issue. Well, simple in theory, but it may require some considerable examination of the system.
Here is my thinking. Rather than stones being equal to both the effort spent and the effect gained, stones spent will now be split between the two.
Any time stones are allocated (including free stones from the General Pool), they must be split between Effort and Effect. Stones of Effort are used to overcome the Resistance of the action. Stones of Effect measure the degree of effectiveness, after success is determined. Certain Modifiers will only add to one or the other. Further, I think it is reasonable to also allow excess Stones of Effort to translate to bonus Stones of Effect (probably a 3:1 ratio).
Combat is the simplest way to understand what I'm referring to. Here's an example of how it might play out:
Example: Wolverine is going toe to toe with Sabretooth. He doesn’t have time to tangle, so he needs to take him out quickly. He decides to risk an all-or-nothing maneuver. He allocates all he can to Close Combat, 11 stones (7 for his Action Number, and 4 for his Agility Bonus). His “Hand-to-Hand” Specialty grants him 2 free stones from the General Pool, leaving him with a total of 13.
Wolvie needs to make sure he connects with Sabretooth, so he allocates 7 of his stones to Effort, and leaves the other 6 for Effect.
Sabretooth didn’t expect Wolvie to leap right in so quickly, so only allocated 2 stones to Effort Defense, and only 1 to his Effect Defense. His Reflexive Dodge grants another stone, for a total of 3. Wolvie’s 7 overcomes this, with 4 to spare. Three of those become 1 stone of Effect.
Wolvie now has his original 6 stones of Effect, plus the 1 from his exceptional Effort, plus 3 from his Claws…a total Effect of 10 stones! Sabretooth has only 1 stone of Defense against Effect, and no Modifiers to improve it. 9 of Wolverine’s stones take effect, translating to a loss of 3 white stones of Health for Sabretooth. Ouch.
By no means is this a complete suggestion. This only occured to me yesterday, and I realize it needs a lot more before it would be playable. I'm looking for thoughts and suggestions on how this might be workable.
And as usual, while comments on flaws in this idea (preferrably accompanying suggestions on fixing them) are welcome, please keep all "the system is fine as it is" comments to yourself. That attitude is irrelevent here, and only derails otherwise productive discussions.
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Post by Neros on Mar 7, 2006 16:07:40 GMT -5
I read it and i think it sounds like it could be done without any real changes. Actully, when i read it, i thought that maybe this was the way they wanted the system to work in the first place... But maybe not But the concept of having and effort value and a effect sounds quite logical and right to do. Only thing that might take it all down a notch is the dynamic and speed of the game. Right know its just place stones after how much you want to do, which makes combat and anything els work quit fast. But the system you are suggestion is great when i think about high ability and close combat characters, which can place like 14 stones into and attack, and still have a super duper hit. So it balanceses that out ALLOT and gives characters with lower abilities a chance againt those "14 stone attackers each turn" characters. And with you suggestion, they could make it: Effort (2) & Effect (12), and maybe tottally miss because they aimed more for effect than effort. Also gives Reflexsive dodge and Toughness new uses. Reflexsive dodge vs Effort and Toughness Vs Effect. But all in all, a great idea... Its late know, so ill see if i can come up with something to add to it.
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Post by sgingell on Mar 8, 2006 21:04:44 GMT -5
Part of the problem will be determining which stones people are allowed to allocate into attack and damage. One of the problems I have with the book system can be described as follows:
A goon with Ranged Combat 4 shoots Colossus in the back with a +2 pistol for a 6 stone attack. At +6 Toughness Colossus doesn't care. Disgusted, the goon throws down the gun, then Bullseye picks it up and gives it a shot. With Ranged Combat: 8, +2 targeting, and a +2 gun Bullseye cranks out a 12 stone attack which inflicts a serious injury. Same gun firing the same bullet with the same force, no question that the bullet hits in either case but huge difference in injury.
What I want is something like you suggest, Bullseye's skill lets him hit anyone, even people who dodge like crazy, but by breaking off damage into a different category Bullseye still isn't going to pierce Colossus' skin with a normal gun.
Alternately a goon with RC: 4 isn't skilled enough to hit Spiderman if Spidey is dodging flat out, regardless of if it is a +2 gun, a +4 rifle, a +6 laser, or a +12 plasma cannon, Spidey doesn't care. He's fast enough that he just isn't there when the goon tries to draw a bead on him.
Putting that sort of thing into effect means that you need to make decisions about whether all sorts of things can be used for damage or accuracy or both and changes some power balances.
Even if the Hulk's strength can add 10-18 stones of *damage*, he's still not a threat to anyone who can dodge the 3 stones he can put into CC to actually land a punch. If you let the Hulk use his Strength to connect, independently of damage, then you get the "You can dodge little hand guns, but not powerful rifles" issue that started me down this path in the first place.
If the Hulk can't put all his strength stones into accuracy he needs to be re-balanced to remain a threat. If he can then there still isn't a difference between what he can do and what a high skill low strength character can do, which is the problem that motivated the revision.
-Stephen
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Post by Scriptus on Mar 9, 2006 1:41:50 GMT -5
Let me see if I understand this correctly.
1. Stones of effort basically overcome reflexive dodge and other 'skill/dodging' type defenses.
2. Stones of effect overcome toughness and armor type defenses.
3. In order to hit something your stones of effort must exceed your opponents
4. Once you hit something the stones in effect are compared to the opponent's stones place in toughness/armor/durability/etc... If that succeeds you cause damage.
If I have understood this correctly:
A. I think that action numbers (or action numbers and appropriate bonuses/modifiers (agility, speed, intelligence, targeting)) should determine the maximum effort number.
B. One of the following (strength, speed, durability, and any other appropriate modifiers, like claws) should determine the maximum effect.
C. Special consideration should be given by the GM to characters like the Hulk where a near miss (Hulk hitting the ground beside you, instead of hitting you) could still have an effect even if the effort was not enough.
Example: Hulk is fighting a quick robot and he really wants to hit this annoying thing that is chucking small metal pieces at him from a 50 cal. mounted on it's shoulder. He puts 13 stones into close combat. 3 from his close combat AN + 10 from his strength.
He puts 3 into effort (his maximum because of his close combat AN) and 10 into effect (from his strength) .
The robot puts 4 into close combat to dodge (effort) and has a toughness of 4 (effect). He successfully dodges the Hulk's swing but the massive wind that results from the swing puts the robot on the ground.
Hulk (now madder) puts 14 stones into close combat (3 in effort, 11 in effect). The robot again puts 4 into an effort to dodge. This time because of the negative sit mod for the robot being on it's back the Hulk connects. 11 stones of effect (Hulk's strength) meet 4 stones of effect (robot's toughness) and we have a pile of scrap.
Is that how you see this working?
Situation mods become huge with a system like this. you definitely need a GM who pays attention to that sort of thing.
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Post by piratespice on Mar 9, 2006 2:59:05 GMT -5
I really like the thinking that is going into this. I'll review these posts again when I'm more awake, and see if I can hammer out some solutions.
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Post by dagonex on Mar 9, 2006 10:09:42 GMT -5
This is definitely a great idea. It's basically breaking things down (at least combat wise) into the ol' D&D tradition of going against Armor Class (effort) and Damage Resistance (effect). Of course this will make combat a bit more complicated, but if you have a sharp GM with a little patience the idea is sound. I really like how this system would finally give a very real (and important) difference between Reflexive Dodge and Toughness.
One question though...how would this be applied to non-combat Actions? Would you keep account of both Effort and Effect or revert it back to simply Stones vs. Resistance/Difficulty? I could see how using Technology to hack a computer could be treated similarly to combat, but applying it to things like Social Skills and General Knowledge (which should just have one "check", shouldn't they?) is confusing me a bit. Any ideas?
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Post by piratespice on Mar 9, 2006 11:53:17 GMT -5
sgingell: You're probably right. Certain NPCs will need stats reworked a bit. Pity. I'd like to find a way to do this with as little alteration required as possible. Your examples bring to mind one of my biggest considerations: Ability Bonuses, and whether they should be limited in how they can be used in regards to Effort and Effect. Scriptus: You understand correctly. Interesting idea about using an Ability to limit Effect. My original thought was that the total stones (Effort + Effect) would still be limited by Action Number. While this might require toning down Resistances a bit, it would also achieve a positive result. It would rein in a common problem I see...that players have little reason not to open up combat with an all-out attack, allocating maximum stones. This way, even if they do, they'll have to pick and choose how those stones are used, and risk failure if they want a big bang. The issue with near-misses is a tough one, and would probably have to be left to GM fiat (which, I think, was your point). One question though...how would this be applied to non-combat Actions? Would you keep account of both Effort and Effect or revert it back to simply Stones vs. Resistance/Difficulty? I could see how using Technology to hack a computer could be treated similarly to combat, but applying it to things like Social Skills and General Knowledge (which should just have one "check", shouldn't they?) is confusing me a bit. Any ideas? Much the same as they're used now; with degrees of success. When I GM, if someone exceeds their Social Skills Resistance by 5 stones, they're going to get a much more potent effect than in they beat it by 1 stone. In this case, Effort would be the act of getting your audience's attention, Effect would represent how much you can stir them to achieve your desired result. I suppose certain actions could be considered "Effort-only," though I am a big fan of universal systems. I'd rather see a player make the choice on whether Effect is terribly important, or whether he just needs to find some historical reference (General Knowledge), rather than know every detail of the Battle of Carthage. Thoughts?
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Post by sgingell on Mar 9, 2006 14:05:58 GMT -5
One idea that had crossed my mind was splitting AN into Control & Power. If you buy (Flight say) at AN: 4, you get a 'Control' AN and a 'Power' AN that have to average four.
Example: Bob has both at 4, he can fly at speed 4 and dodge around with up to 4 stones. Jim has Power 6, and Control 2. He's very fast (flying speed 6) but can't put more than 2 stones into fancy maneuvers in the air. Finally Sam has Power 2, and Control 6. He doesn't go very fast, but he can turn on a dime and dodge masterfully.
Other powers suggest themselves pretty naturally to this distinction. A high skill TK might be able to thread a needle without being able to lift a person's weight. A high power TK might be able to shove tanks without being able to control very precisely where they go.
In most cases 'Control' would let you overcome difficulty and 'Power' would let you overcome resistance, but it would get adjudicated on a power by power basis.
One option if you feel one half of the power is more valuable than the other is just weighting the average. Suppose I think flight speed is the main thing and maneuverability is a minor extra. I might 'double weight' the speed portion in the averaging. For example, Speed 6 and Control 3 would come out to the cost of an action number of 5, which is [(6x2)+3)]/3.
Where I have a hard time is getting the balance right when it is applied to combat.
-Stephen
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Post by Neros on Mar 15, 2006 7:01:43 GMT -5
the idea with this great, but i must say its tricky to create without to much change in the rest of the system... But it would be great to add it to the game...
Big strong guy wiht a Close Combat of 1 (Strength bonus) and a strength of 10. Little guy with a Close Combat of 6 (Strength bonus) and a strength of 2. Even though he would be able to evade the Big Guys attacks (He's MUCH better at fighting), the big guy would still be able to hit him because he is stronger. I would say its a rather big error in the system...
But if it's split up, it will make attacks much weaker than before, and fights would take even longer, unless some other changes where made as well. Maybe also add the difference between Attack Effort and Defense Effort to the Damage effect/Defense Effect.
Big Guy makes and attack of Effort 5 and Effect 6. Little Guy Placese 8 Stones from his Close Combat into Defense, and makes it Effort 4 and Effect 4. The Big guy Hits with 1 Stone (4 vs 5). 2 stones of effect gets in and damages Smally but gets additional +1 for difference from Effort (4 vs 6+1).
There could offcourse be different modifiers from situation and Weaponry (which could have Aid and Damage) that could affect the fight.
But something this system would work really well with, would be as mentioned different levels of telekinese AND other powers (Force blast for and exampel...) There where suggested something in the transform self topic that could be used, which could be used... Ill give and exampel later... have no time know...
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Post by urgat on Mar 15, 2006 14:15:39 GMT -5
Hey... This is intresting. The problem I can see know is when you allocatde defense in combat. A character doesn't seem to benefit much to split the stones to effort and effect. Effect seems a more appropiate defense. As I picture it a character will almost always allocate all stones into a single pile instead of splitting them. For example a character would almost alyays allocate defense into effect unless he knows he can beat a characters attack. The loss if he misses would be to great to risk it.
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Post by Neros on Mar 15, 2006 16:30:08 GMT -5
Just thought of something that might work...
When a character attacks, he gets X free modifier stones for either Effort or effect, where X is the difference between the Characters Close Combat. These stones can then be used in either Effort or Effect, determined by what ability Bonus the character has.
Agility puts stones into Effort. Strength puts stones into Effect.
Exampel: Mr. B: Close Combat 2 (Strength Bonus), Strength 6 Martial: Close Combat 6 (Agility Bonus), Agility 4
Mr. B attacks Martial with and Effort of 3 and a Effect 5. Martial places 6 in Close Combat and shifts it to Defense like this: Effort 4, Effect 2. But theres a difference between their skills by 4, so he gains additionally 4 stones more into effort.
This is just a thought, im not at all sure it would work out well...
And Urgat, it would work fine with defense... Effort is against the attackers effort and effect is against his effect... You can see it like this: How much does the character want to get hit? How well does he prepare to get hit?...
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Post by urgat on Mar 16, 2006 4:27:50 GMT -5
Yes, I see how the types work against each other. But why would a character allocate effortstones and effect stones when just using one type would be more effective. If an attacker has high enough skill to put a lot of stones in effort the defender should almost always put all defese stones into effect to maximise the value of those stones. If he put them into effort he might miss the attack entirebly and take a lot of stones in damage. And if a defender knows he's probably better then the attacker he should allocate all stones into effort to avoid the attack completly. The reason I believe effect stones to be better is that all those stones count. When allocating effort stones and you doesn't succed with your defense all those stones are pretty much wasted with the exeption of every third if you go with what's stated above.
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Post by Brainstem on Mar 16, 2006 11:36:15 GMT -5
Well yeah, but that just brings more strategy into it is all. Makes players think more about how they're going to play the game and prevents from becomming *entirely* I put x into this vs. your y. Granted it comes out like that still, there's more to it than what it used to be.
I personally like sgingell's approach, with the power/control thing going on. Also explains how you get people that have newly arisen powers; still have a high amount of power, but their control over it isn't totally there. Maybe an option where, when creating a rookie kind of character, you pay half price for power and half price for control? That way, the total cost will come out just about the same, but the lower the control is purchased, the harder it will be for the player to maximize the ability. Maybe there's no control over it until C = .5(p)? Then the player will have limited control, with occassional flares out of control. Once C = P, the player has total control over it. Control can be raised through lines (maybe 5 lines for it to go up a level, since it's really half of an action anyway? Once they're equal, you don't have Power and Control, you just have the action).
I don't think that made much sense... maybe common name spelling will bridge the gap of convoluted logic?
~Steve~
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Post by Neros on Mar 17, 2006 5:30:28 GMT -5
The only problem really here, is as you said urgat. A defender could just place everything into Effort to defend himself... The only thing that would ignore that kind of effort would be area effects (the same thing like reflexsive dodge, how do you dodge explosions?). But not many use area effects in close combat, so throwing everything into effort would make attacks quit useless since the attack HAS to be split up... Not to mention if the attacker also wants to add defense.... Theres allot of changes needed for this to work...
But a thing im gona trie and use, is the free modifier stones (to defense) from Skill differenceses... A person with a Higher skill than his opponent should have a better chance of dodging... I would like to trie this just to trie and fix that "High Ability bonus and low Skill vs High skill and low Ability" thing...
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Post by beryl on Jun 28, 2006 13:50:59 GMT -5
If it helps, you can think of it like this:
Effort = Accuracy Effect = Damage
As far as Close Combat is concerned, at any rate.
As always, I'm going to play the Devil's Advocate and say that I like the abstract - and simple - system MURPG already has in place.
As far as Close Combat goes, it really doesn't matter much. Whether the majority punch comes from an ability or Close Combat is largely irrelevant except when it comes to describing it cinematically. I could go into detail on my reasons for saying this, if you'd like.
Basically, it boils down to looking at the results in terms of raw stones, looking at where they came from, and describing the results so that they make sense.
While I agree that this is quite problematic, it could be solved by saying that Bullseye's high skill and Targeting allow him to easily hit the weak points on the body, as even Collossus' body is more vulnerable in some places than others.
Corny? Yes. Does it solve anything? Not at all! :D But that's how MURPG seems to tend to deal with those kinds of things.
Not necessarily. A handgun might be easy to dodge, even if he's just standing there acting like Keanu in That One Movie. However, the rifle is naturally more accurate (due to the longer barrel), which could explain that. The laser and the plasma cannon, though, could fire at rates far surpassing that of a handgun or a rifle, because there isn't any need to eject the brass and load a new shell. Not to mention that the projectiles themselves (lasers or plasma blasts) travel many, many times faster than any bullet, and are possibly larger in diameter, as well. Not to mention, of course, any targeting systems on these things...
In other words, you don't necessarily need to be more accurate because while Spidey can snake his way through a hail of bullets, he'll have a harder time dodging plasma bolts the size of soup cans that are moving at the speed of light.
In many cases, Spidey'd be better off using some kind of movement to get the hell out of the way, rather than trying to stay in the target zone and pray for the best. Knowing Spidey, he might do just that, and rely on his high Agility to take out his opponents quickly before they can fire.
Let's use the example of the Hulk, again. Yes, damage could be avoided entirely if you simply sidestep his punch. But nobody said it'd be easy! His immense strength means that his fist has lots of speed. It may not be quick and agile, but when it comes crashing down, it does it in a flash like lighning. And it doesn't always come crashing down, either. Sometimes, it's a backhand that covers a lot of space, making it difficult to dodge.
Kinda see what I mean? I think that's how the designers intended for it to work. I'd be lying if I said it always made sense, but it's not bad enough for me to tamper with a good thing.
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