|
Post by piratespice on Sept 11, 2003 16:36:40 GMT -5
In my games, I use Speed to determine order of actions, not Agility.
MURPG is a game that encourages strong choices when designing a character. While this sometimes makes character creation difficult, I believe it is usually beneficial for helping create heroes appropriate to the four-color Marvel Universe. As such, most of the Abilities of MURPG can be summed up by the choices they encourage.
Intelligence = Super-Scientist/Mentalist (e.g. Reed Richards, Professor X) Strength = Brick (e.g. Hulk, Thing) Agility = Roof-Jumper (e.g. Spider-Man, Daredevil) Speed = Speedster (e.g. Quicksilver) (Durability is universally useful to all of the above concepts.)
Pretty much all Marvel characters fall into one or more of the above categories.
So, with this thinking in mind (which I am convinced is the thinking that went into the design of the game), what compelled the game-designers to consider Agility to determine how quickly you can react to a dangerous situation? Agility is a measure of coordination and nimbleness. If it is something more than this, then is it become a bit too broad compared to the other Abilities.
Granted, the way Speed is described suggests that it is nothing more than running speed. Yet it can be applied to Close Combat, for example, an Action that only rarely has to do specifically with running speed, but potentially has a great deal to do with overall quickness of movement.
So, if Speed is just a measure of how fast you can run, why does it cost the same as the other Abilities, which are applicable to far more situations and Actions?
Let's get back to the idea that Speed is a measure of "Speedster-ness." A player playing a speedster character expects to be faster than everyone else. That means faster reaction times...in other words, he acts first. I don't think it is fair to expect that player to pay even more for an Action that is already underpowered. This is especially unfair considering that one extra cost level will probably be 3 to 5 stones more, since a Speedster -- by definition -- has a high Speed.
So, to sum up:
1) Agility is inappropriate for determining order of actions. 2) MURPG Abilities encourage strong character choices. Thus, a high Speed equals "speedster." 3) Speed is already underpowered compared to other Abilities, cheating the speedster of well-spent stones. Forcing him to spend even more stones to use his Speed to be faster in the order of actions (an essential part of being a speedster) is highway robbery.
...and that is my argument for using Speed for order of actions.
|
|
|
Post by xavier on Sept 11, 2003 18:35:11 GMT -5
So, to sum up: 1) Agility is inappropriate for determining order of actions. Well, you didn't convince me. From my point of agility is as appropriate as Speed I don't think that Speed is underpowered. It seems to me that it's at the same level as Strength. You may use speed for special effect (running very fast) or as an ability bonus for few actions (close combat, unstoppable). Agility is pretty useless as an ability alone (except action order) but work very well as an ability bonus (a lot of Actions already have this Action as for free) Not exactly, since Speed can already be used for action order, this is your argument for using Speed for action order FOR FREE. And i would respond "Why not ?"
|
|
|
Post by beyonder on Sept 12, 2003 11:02:36 GMT -5
How'zabout using either Speed or Agility, player's choice? Since Xavier's point, that the two stats are approximately equal in power and versatility, is a good one, AND since I can see reaction time being a function of either (quick: who reacts faster, Spider-Man or Silver Surfer?), why not make both your Speedsters and your Roof-jumpers happy? Heck, one could even make a case for Intelligence being a plausible basis for sequencing: after all, the Marvel Super-Heroes RPG (anyone still remember it?) used Intuition, which roughly translates into Int (plus Mods like Animal Senses and Radar Senses) in MURPG. This takes into account guys like Wolverine, who usually senses trouble before it hits, and Doc Doom, who has been known to use his armor's sensors plus his brilliant mind to anticipate his foes' actions.
As a side note, the difference between Intelligence and senses prompted me to re-create MSH's Intuition score for my own game. After all, plenty of smart guys are unobservant and easily distracted.
|
|
|
Post by piratespice on Sept 12, 2003 11:41:17 GMT -5
I don't think that Speed is underpowered. It seems to me that it's at the same level as Strength. You may use speed for special effect (running very fast) or as an ability bonus for few actions (close combat, unstoppable). Agility is pretty useless as an ability alone (except action order) but work very well as an ability bonus (a lot of Actions already have this Action as for free) You're right, Speed can be used for a few Actions. Two, to be precise. Strength and Agility can be used for four. Agility isn't as useless as you make it out to be. It is the stat used to resist falling damage (without Acrobatics), and is used for most physical activities you don't have an Action for. No, this is my argument for using Speed for action order and NOT Agility. To make the Speedster's ability to use Speed for order of actions balanced and truly effective, everyone has to use Speed. I have to point out that I noticed a flaw in my own logic in the original post (hopefully before anyone else does ). I erroneously suggested that using Speed for order of actions cost an additional Cost Level, which it does not. It only costs one extra white stone. On the other hand, one white stone can go a long way. Ultimately, this still doesn't change my opinion. Hmm...not sure I understand what you mean. Despite all this, you failed to address the main point of the original post (perhaps I didn't make it clear enough that it was my main point). That being the fact that -- even in a game system that so heavily encourages strong, classic choices -- speedsters get cheated. I'll try to illustrate this a bit better. Here's what each physical Ability (besides Durability) is capable of: Strength- Bonus for Acrobatics - Bonus for Close Combat - Bonus for Unstoppable - Bonus for Wall-Crawling - Lifting/Carrying - Leaping - Breaking (overcoming Hardness) Agility- Bonus for Acrobatics - Bonus for Close Combat - Bonus for Thieving - Bonus for Wall-Crawling - Leaping - Physical activity with no Action - Resist falling damage - Order of Actions Speed- Bonus for Close Combat - Bonus for Unstoppable - Running - Leaping - Special Speed actions - must have Speed of 7 or 10 That's 7 uses for Strength, 8 for Agility, and 5 for Speed. Okay...all three can be used for leaping and as a bonus for Close Combat, so those becomes irrelevent. That still leaves Strength with 5 potential uses, Agility with 6, and Speed with 3. Even if a character has none of the relevent Actions (and we ignore leaping), the ratio then becomes 2/3/2...and one of Speed's uses only applies if you dump 6 or 15 stones into it. But taking the Actions out of the picture isn't really fair, since most characters will have a handful of Actions using their strongest Ability as a bonus. Well...once again the Speedster gets the short end of the stick -- he only has two to choose from. The Brick and the Roof-Jumper have more selection, plus they get all of their "extras" (lifting, breaking, resisting falling damage, etc.) from the very beginning (as opposed AN 7 or 10). Speed gets...running. While its neat to run super fast, usually all it does it get you to the fight (hooray, I'm here...now what?), or take you out of it (gee, not playing is fun).
|
|
|
Post by piratespice on Sept 12, 2003 11:46:52 GMT -5
How'zabout using either Speed or Agility, player's choice? Since Xavier's point, that the two stats are approximately equal in power and versatility, is a good one, AND since I can see reaction time being a function of either (quick: who reacts faster, Spider-Man or Silver Surfer?), why not make both your Speedsters and your Roof-jumpers happy? Heck, one could even make a case for Intelligence being a plausible basis for sequencing: after all, the Marvel Super-Heroes RPG (anyone still remember it?) used Intuition, which roughly translates into Int (plus Mods like Animal Senses and Radar Senses) in MURPG. This takes into account guys like Wolverine, who usually senses trouble before it hits, and Doc Doom, who has been known to use his armor's sensors plus his brilliant mind to anticipate his foes' actions. Some of this I addressed in my prior post. As for things like Intelligence being used...sure, it could be. But I'd much rather handle that through Sit Mods. Just because you can detect something, doesn't mean you can react quickly to it. If Wolvie smells Sabretooth coming, he can still be caught by surprise (just check out his ambush in the X-Men movie), and should using Agility/Speed (whatever your preference) for his order of actions, modified by the Situational Modifiers (see Xavier's comments under the "Combat Sense" thread).
|
|
|
Post by xavier on Sept 12, 2003 12:50:38 GMT -5
No, this is my argument for using Speed for action order and NOT Agility. To make the Speedster's ability to use Speed for order of actions balanced and truly effective, everyone has to use Speed. OK, i misunderstood that in your first post. Sorry It's because i thought that you are wanting to drop the additional white stone to choose Speed for oder of action. And i was agree with that. Now i realize that you said something else. So forget it. I understand your point. It's just, from my point of view, that the discrepancy between Speedsters and "Roof Leapers" is not as wide as you describe. I can agree there a difference in the favor of the "roof leaper" but such difference can be easily filled by droping these "additional white stone" rule. From your point of view, it's obvious that it isn't enough. I don't think that we could agree about that. BTW, stones spent in running speed may be added to close combat (charge). If you have chosen Speed as an ability bonus for close combat (like any speedster should do), that mean that your Speed level will be used twice. A Speedster can be VERY powerfull during a fight.
|
|
|
Post by piratespice on Sept 12, 2003 13:52:21 GMT -5
BTW, stones spent in running speed may be added to close combat (charge). If you have chosen Speed as an ability bonus for close combat (like any speedster should do), that mean that your Speed level will be used twice. A Speedster can be VERY powerfull during a fight. I don't believe that this is the case. I'm assuming you're talking about combining Actions, much in the way you could combine Flight with Close Combat for a charging attack. While it seems to be technically true by the letter of the Game Guide (though I can't find any specific examples of combining a raw Ability with an Action), it also seems to defy logic. If you've already got a Speed bonus, it seems reasonable that you're already using your velocity to your advantage. Having Close Combat should only increase that benefit by as much training as you have (which is reflected in your Action Number). As a GM, I wouldn't allow someone to use the same stat twice for the same Action. By that rationale, I should be able to apply any other stat twice, too. EXAMPLE: "I acrobatically leap at him using my Agility, then punch him with Close Combat, which has an Agility Bonus." Using the above logic, this character should be able to use his Agility twice. I think a good rule of thumb to avoid this issue is that you can only combine Actions that you possess, not Abilities being used in lieu of Actions.
|
|
|
Post by xavier on Sept 12, 2003 18:48:40 GMT -5
I don't believe that this is the case. I'm assuming you're talking about combining Actions, much in the way you could combine Flight with Close Combat for a charging attack. While it seems to be technically true by the letter of the Game Guide (though I can't find any specific examples of combining a raw Ability with an Action), it also seems to defy logic. Hey ! You're right. I reread the passage about combining Actions and combining seems to work only between Actions. Maybe the sentence "flying, or other stones representing speed (and not Speed !)" confused me.
|
|
|
Post by wayne on Sept 22, 2003 9:29:59 GMT -5
Frankly, I agree in that I think Speed, as an ability, is underpowered. While I think it would be a BIG improvement to allow players to choose at character creation whether to use Agility or Speed for order of actions (no penalties), I also agree that if Speed isn't used universally, anyone who's a speedster (which really means anyone with a Speed of 4+) is being cheated.
Consider a character with a strong power (Optic Blasts, TK, Mastery of Water, etc.) who is otherwise human. Realistically, that person should only have, at most, a 3 in all stats except Intelligence. As things currently stand, you have practically NO incentive to give this character a 3 in Speed as opposed to a 3 in Agility. Because, for the most part, all you'll do with that Speed is run. On the other hand, you'll use your Agility TO PERFORM TASKS YOU DON'T HAVE AN ACTION FOR. That trait is important enough on it's own that Agility shouldn't need to be supplemented by also providing combat initiative.
At the very least, letting the player choose which of the two Abilities to use alleviates this somewhat... but even that doesn't alter the fact that the true speedster is getting the shaft. If I have a Agility of 2, but a Speed of 6, I'm running 250mph... I've got to be able to *move* at outrageous speeds to be able to do that. Maybe a character who has a Speed of 2 but an Agility of 7 can juggle 12 chainsaws while playing hackysack and balancing a yardstick on his nose... but no way in heck should he be able to do *anything* faster than I can, and hence go first.
(And if he has Prescience, that takes care of itself--negating the Spider-Man example.)
Just by two bits.
-Wayne
|
|
|
Post by i3ullseye on Sept 22, 2003 21:35:22 GMT -5
Speed is the only ability that gets special actions at higher elvels. This is keeps it form being over powered. Speed can also be used to determine action order for minimal cost.... you cant do that with strength or intelligence. And speed is combined with close combat to simulate move bys and move throughs.
I know people who can run way faster than me. they have a better stride, longer legs, etc.. but when sparring, i can duck their punch and they can't slip mine. Agility is way more important for REACTIONS and very important for actions. If a character wants to be based on its speed, it only takes a minimal cost to do this for speedsters.
But here is the other issue.
How fast to character/heroes run? How many in the marvel universe have a speed above 3? Speed 3 is 40 Miles Per Hour! Peak human here. The fastest man on record is Michael Johnson. He clocks in at 23.16 Mph. Now lets think about that for a moment.
So even speed 3 is faster than the fastest man alive in the real world. But he woudl be in the 3 range because 2 tops out at 20 Mph. This means maybe 2 dozen people in the WORLD would have a speed of 3.
So is this saying everyone in the world reacts at high or low speed? We only have 1 or 2 to deal with. This removes any grades of variance. It becomes A and B and nothing else.
How many in the main book have faster than speed 3?
Beast has 5. Doom has 4. Hulk has 4. Kang has 4. Loki has 5. Quicksilver has 10. Rogue has 5. Silver Surfer has 6. Spiderman has 5. Thor has 5. Toad has 4. Ultron has 5. Venom has 5.
Now agility ranges MUCH wider. So that means everyone else goes close to the same time. The VAST majority of people have Speed 2. So if you use speed, almost everyone acts at the same time.
And i DO think that Wolverine with an Agility of 4, but only a speed of 2, woudl certainly beat Hulk to the punch.
|
|
|
Post by wayne on Sept 23, 2003 7:20:47 GMT -5
Speed is the only ability that gets special actions at higher elvels. This is keeps it form being over powered. Speed can also be used to determine action order for minimal cost.... you cant do that with strength or intelligence. And speed is combined with close combat to simulate move bys and move throughs. Yes, Speed can be used for that. But since Agility can also combine w/ Close Combat, because those extra actions don't kick in until Speed 7 and 10, and because Agility has the honor of being the catch-all attribute, useful in every situation, I feel Speed simply cannot compete with all that Agility gives. Yeah, you can use Speed... if you pay a stone. That's more a way to keep the mechanic from being entirely broken when speedsters enter the scene, not exactly an attempt at balance. I know people who can run way faster than me. they have a better stride, longer legs, etc.. but when sparring, i can duck their punch and they can't slip mine. Agility is way more important for REACTIONS and very important for actions. That may be so. But again, that only takes into account lower levels of the attributes. If we're talking Agility 6 versus Speed 6, then it breaks apart. "Agility" shouldn't mean speed of action, it should mean at most dexterity and... well... agility. You can be able to do amazing things with your hands and not have superhuman reaction times. That's not true if you're running at 250mph--you'd better have some swift reactions then, otherwise just a little sand on the pavement that tosses your footing off for 1/32 a second will kill you. So is this saying everyone in the world reacts at high or low speed? We only have 1 or 2 to deal with. This removes any grades of variance. It becomes A and B and nothing else. How many in the main book have faster than speed 3? Beast has 5. Doom has 4. Hulk has 4. Kang has 4. Loki has 5. Quicksilver has 10. Rogue has 5. Silver Surfer has 6. Spiderman has 5. Thor has 5. Toad has 4. Ultron has 5. Venom has 5. Well, let's take a look at that, shall we? A Speed of 4 means you're running at 75mph. SPD 5=125mph. SPD 6=250mph. Now, apparently the game designers were thinking that because they didn't give most of those characters a 7, that they aren't speedsters... which is bunk. If you're *running* at 125mph+--i.e. moving your legs, what, about a hundred times a second?--you're a speedster, period. Maybe one several levels below Quicksilver, but you certainly qualify. And frankly, if most of those stats are truly accurate, then most of them sure aren't portrayed in the comics accurately. (With speed like that, how can the police even keep track of Venom when he runs off? Why does Rogue even bother to fly anywhere less than a mile away? I won't even comment on Doom being able to run 75mph....) Basically, despite the fact that Speed *should* mean moving/running speed, and yet the book clearly states that Speed means running (and NOT moving or flight) speed, one gets the unmistakeable impression that someone(s) on the design team isn't making a hard-and-fast distinction between the meanings behind Speed and Agility. This is A Bad Thing. And i DO think that Wolverine with an Agility of 4, but only a speed of 2, woudl certainly beat Hulk to the punch. Well, I guess that we're just going to have to disagree on this. If the Hulk truly can run at 75mph--or even just at 41mph--he CANNOT be a slothful mass of muscles. He just couldn't be. I would rather argue that, if we're going to make clear distinctions between the two stats (which, again, I don't think some on the game design team did), then either Hulk's Speed should be moved down, or Wolverine's Agility should be raised. -Wayne
|
|
|
Post by beyonder on Sept 23, 2003 8:06:53 GMT -5
On the topic of characters in the book having strangely high Speed scores, I've been wondering about that myself. Many of the stats in the books make little sense to me (Peter Parker's 7 Intelligence vs. Hank McCoy's 5), and Speed seems really off in many places. Possible reasons for this? Well, giving the writers and Marvel editors the benefit of the doubt (which is to say, "assuming that they were paying attention and knew what they were doing"), I'd say that the best explanation is that thay wanted a RANGE of Speed scores. Taken strictly as a running speed, the score would group almost every hero and villain into the 1-3 range, which I think the designers found boring. They probably looked for any excuse to bump up that score: Doom probably COULD run at 4 in his powered armor, though he'd never actually be seen RUNNING anywhere, and Kang likewise (why not Iron Man? umm, I have no idea); Ultron is a robot: I can envision him chasing down a fleeing car; Hulk, Loki, Rogue, Spider-Man, Thing, Thor, and Venom are all superhumanly strong and durable, which COULD mean that their strides are longer and their sprinting more energetic than mere humans'. Maybe the official editors even found remote incidences of high running speed in these characters.
Look at the X-Men book, though. The only character with anything BUT 1-3 Speed are Northstar, Onslaught, Sentinels, Proudstar, and Wolfsbane in full wolf form, all of which make sense. (Oh, and Doop, but flight speed doesn't really count.) It seems as though more care was taken with this book.
Man, would I like to get ahold of some of the writer/editors and find out exactly what their logic was in cases like this!
|
|
|
Post by piratespice on Sept 25, 2003 12:16:02 GMT -5
It seems that one of the big arguments being made is that Speed is only good for running speed, therefore shouldn't be used for order of Actions. This is the thinking that I am opposing. Sadly, it seems to be the approach that the game designers took. Every other Ability covers a whole range of things related to their respective "elements."
Strength covers every muscle in the body. Its pretty rare that someone is equally strong throughout their body. Arm strength and leg strength often vary greatly. Even within the arm, different muscles can have different strengths. You might be able to lift 400 lbs., but that doesn't necessarily mean you punch hard. An entirely different muscle is primarily responsible for punching power.
Agility covers physical flexibility, coordination, manual dexterity, AND reflex speed. These have very little to absolutely nothing to do with each other when it comes to physiology. So why do we lump them into a single Ability? Because of psychological associations we have between them. Also because this game encourages strong choices, and a high-Agility character (as detailed in an earlier post) is one such strong choice.
Intelligence covers raw knowledge, learning ability, problem solving, operating technology, willpower, and (potentially) mental power (via telepathy, TK, etc). Though these are mostly related, they still cover various aspects of one's mental faculties. One can be knowledgeable, but not strong-willed. One can be technically capable, but not a quick learner. Again, this Ability is designed to cover a broad range of semi-related topics.
So...what about Speed? It covers...running speed. Very specific...not nearly as universally useful as what the other Abilities are capable of.
|
|
|
Post by i3ullseye on Sept 25, 2003 17:09:47 GMT -5
Speed does not always mean long term enduring running at those rates, it can mean short sprints. So it is not horribly innaccurate. But the Hulk is correct as he has been clocked running at those speeds. And it has also been shown that Wolverine can dodge him and beat him to the punch.
Hence, Hulk has higher speed, and Wolvie the higher agility.
A note. If you read my Advanced Combat Primer, I make a few suggestions on how to adapt high speed speedsters into the action order. For example, if they DO base their actions on speed, and their speed is higher than the agility of someone attempting a ranged attack by enough, they can actually close the distance before that ranged attack occurs. Another little tid-bit not directly covered in detail by the rules.
|
|
|
Post by candyman on Sept 30, 2003 21:56:38 GMT -5
did a little bit of reading in the guidebook on speed, and found that if you wish you can buy speed as your ability for order of actions by spending one white stone added to whatever speed you buy for your character.
i feel this is fine, my only thing about speed is it should be an option for an acrobatics ability bonus
oh well, hope that resolves something peace
|
|