|
Post by ds on Jul 16, 2003 23:47:10 GMT -5
Kay, a few thinky noises.
In the CCC recently, the Executioner just sort of ganked people. Not dramatic, not good. So, I put my thinky score to it. Here's my potential fix for Telepathy's mind control.
In order to establish Telepathic Control over someone, it requires that three times their mental defense be overcome. If a cop has an Intelligence of 2, it require 6 stones in Telepathy to insta-gank.
If a character can't make such a dire attack in one fell swoop, then the stones they have placed so far remain committed to the attack, and they can accumulate more in the next panel (but they must add at least one more, or lose them all). However, the target may put stones into their Intelligence to actively fight off the control- removing one of the 'banked' stones for each stone they put into Intelligence. Some other Abilities (Concentration and Biocomputer come quickly to mind) would also be appropriate actions to take here.
Telepathy adds to Mental Resistance, as per normal. Mental Defense, in addition to adding to Mental Resistance, provides it's Modifier Number in bonus stones to the Intelligence resistance bit.
Example: Bob has an Intelligence of 3, Energy of 6/2 per panel and a Mental Defense of 2. It would require 3*(3+2) or 15 stones in Telepathy to directly take control of him.
Mephisto has a total Telepathy action number of 6, and Energy of 8/4 per panel.
First Panel: Mephisto puts 6 stones into Telepathy. Bob is now under attack, and 9 stones away from losing control. (Mephisto: 6 Energy. Bob: 6 Energy)
Second Panel: Mephisto puts 6 more stones into Telepathy. Bob puts 3 stones into Intelligence, and gets 2 bouns stones from his Mental Defense, thereby removing 5 of the 'banked' stones. This leaves Mephisto at a total of 7 stones in, needing 8 more to take over. (Mephisto: 4 energy. Bob: 5 Energy)
Third Panel: Mephisto puts 4 more stones into Telepathy. Bob puts 3 stones into Intelligence, gets the 2 bonus ones, and removes 5 of the banked stones. This leaves Mephisto at a total of 7.
This tug of war will continue for a bit. Unless Bob thinks of something clever, he will eventually succumb- but now he has the time to think of something clever. Like hitting Mephisto and disrupting his concentration, etc.
This also explains why characters fight less effectively while under mental attack but not yet succumbed- their fighting it off, and thus burning one of their actions and some of their stones. Yet it still allows the really weak willed to be almost instantly dominated. (Note: Really weak willed is relative. Mental Resistance of 5 or less means that Prof X can gank you at a moment's notice).
|
|
|
Post by i3ullseye on Jul 17, 2003 13:55:06 GMT -5
Well, again I don;t think Telepathic control is very broken. I may run it a bit differently which woudl account for this, and do kinda agree it needs to be costed as it's own sepeare CL modifier. but here is my views.
1) you need to get one stone MORE than your targets intelligence. Now intelligence is the only stat where normal humans can realistically hit the 6 or 7 range. this means it might be neccessary to have telepathy as high as 7 or 8 to control someone. That makes it one of the more expensive feats to pull off in the game, because even one stone short does nothing.
2) you pay this every panel. So controlling more people, or increasing range (which could both be done with extra stone expenditure) makes it even MORE expensive. Often pushing it beyond 10 stones of effort, but you can only spend as many as you have in telepathy.
3) even one stone of mental defense gets to add intelligence to it's total. So a person with Intelligence 5, and +1 mental defense actually has a defense of 6 against mental effects. Now the way I run it, this means youtake away 6 stones, and they would STILL have to have 6 stones of effect after this to control this individual, so it would take 12 stones of effort.
Point is, it works great on thugs. But it is only easy to use if your whole campaign has 2 intelligence booger eating morons like Captain America. Hehe, sorry, couldn't resist.
|
|
|
Post by ds on Jul 17, 2003 13:58:30 GMT -5
Lookit the core rule book.
Jean Grey can take control over any of the characters in it, except for Magneto (who has a special immunity helmet), Loki (a GOD) and herself, from a straight perspective. (Silver Surfer is questionible, with his Ability and Attribute juggling- unless he changed stuff around, however, she'd gank him too).
I repeat- Telepathy is broken.
|
|
|
Post by i3ullseye on Jul 18, 2003 11:53:59 GMT -5
No, Jean Grey is one of the most potent telepaths the marvel universe has ever known. In the comics she would be able to take over these people also. But why doesn't she? She is a Hero and Xavier has taught her that direct control of another being is not a good or noble act, so they both choose not to do this.
But she certainly IS capable of taking direct control of almost anyone in the marvel universe.
But again, you need to overcome their intelligence by 1, so you missed a few people in the main book she can't take over. She has Telepathy of 7, which means 7 is the most effect she can gain. So she can only take over soemone with an intelligence of 6 or lower.
Baron Mordo is immune Beast is immune ** Captain America is immune ** Cyclops is immune ** Doctor Doom is immune Doc Octopus is immune Doc Strange is immune Gambit is immune ** Green Goblin is COMPLETELY untouchable Bruce Banner is immune Tony Stark is immune Kang is immune Kingpin is immune Loki is immune Magneto is immune Reed Richards is immune Rogue is immune ** Silve Surfer can make himself immune Spider Man is immune Storm is immune ** Ultron is immune for more reasons than one Wolverine is immune ** Yellowjacket is immune
Now the ones with ** are immune if you remove their full defense from stones, and THEN need stones equal to Intelligence +1 to succeed. But even if you only need one over defense (depending how you run it) the fact reamins that MOST are quite resistant to even Jean Grey, one of the foremost telepaths in the marvel universe.
I don't see the problem.
|
|
|
Post by psistrike on Jul 18, 2003 12:02:00 GMT -5
Actually Bullseye she can control several of the characters you said are immune to her.She has the Intelligence Bonus on her Telepathy which does add to the Difficulty she can overcome with it and on how many stones she can put into it.But anyone with a mental defense total of 10 or higher would be immune as she can only put her maximum energy into it which is 10 Energy. Also as you said her morals would normally prevent her from doing this in the first place so anyone who is playing her going around and mind controlling all her opponents should get no lines of experience until they stop doing so.At least if I were the GM they wouldn't.
|
|
|
Post by i3ullseye on Jul 18, 2003 12:51:16 GMT -5
Hmmm.... good point.
I am not really a fan of letting an attribute bonus add to actual effect like that. So then lets go bath though and assume she can assign all 10 stones to it. Who is still immune?
Now note, this is using my interpretation where Mental Defense + Intelligence is subtracted from stones of effect. You then have to have enough left over to beat their Intelligence by 1.
Baron Mordo Beast Doc Strange Green Goblin is immune to damn near anything Kang Loki Magneto Silver Surfer can be immune
So yeah, that narrows the list down quite a bit. But I am not really a fan of Intelligence bonus to Telepathy or Telekinesis adding to effect. This means that mentally Jean is stronger than the Hulk also.
Now I DO see this as being supported by the comics from time to time, so I am really not sure.
|
|
|
Post by dolemite on Jul 18, 2003 13:05:07 GMT -5
With Telepathy you only need to overcome Inteligence + Mental Defense.
Jean Grey can put 10 stones into her telep., so everybody with 9, that are almost all chars, here are the ones that can resist from the MURPG book: Green Goblin Kang Magneto with & w/o helmet Ultron? he is a robot
|
|
|
Post by dolemite on Jul 18, 2003 13:12:04 GMT -5
Bullseye, I think your interpretation is wrong, the look at the example on p. 87 (Jean Grey takes over Sabretooth with just 4 stones used for telepathy, he has Int 3)
I'm not sure about Silver Surfer, he can do only Magical + Physical Actions, but no Mental
|
|
|
Post by ds on Jul 18, 2003 14:14:25 GMT -5
Ah, true, I did forget to take into account her max energy. I was just looking at Intelligence + Telepathy.
And I'm not even disputing that Jean should be able to take over most other characters in the Marvelverse. More that it shouldn't be so one shot, bang, done. It should take some time and effort and be dramatic and such. Bring it more into line with the way Combat works- a process done over two or three panels, rather than a binary state. Let the people under attack try and resist or do SOMETHING while under attack, rather than just gank them away.
|
|
|
Post by dolemite on Jul 18, 2003 14:31:36 GMT -5
I was thinking about this option: You get the number of panels you are controlled times your intelligence + Mental defense
Jean Grey tries to take over a guy with intelligence 3 and mental defense +1. She put 10 stones into telepathy:
Panel 1, she got him easily, his mental defense is 1xInt + Mental Defense
Panel 2, Jean Grey put 1 stone into telep. to keep the link, the guys mental defense is 2 (it is now Panel 2 ) times his Int 3 +1 Mental Defense, so total of 7, but still not enough
Panel 3: Now his mental defenses are enough: 3x Int=9 +1 = 10.
|
|
|
Post by MyPetSlug on Jul 18, 2003 15:40:57 GMT -5
Anyway, the point isn't really about who Jean Grey can and can't take over. She was really just an example. I think what DS is trying to say is that you can easily, I repeat, easily create a character who has awesome telepathic ability, the red stones to put into it, and no moral qualms about doing so. To have a 7 intelligence and 6 telepathy (w/ project thoughts and intelligence bonus) score would take 27 stones (if you were using the special intelligence energy rule). You've still got plenty to make your character. Now you can control someone with a total mental defense of 12 or lower. And like DS said, the only peole who can resist are Magneto (only because of his helmet), Surfer (only because he has the power cosmic), and Loki (only becuase his is a god). And on top of that, while physical combat takes panel after panel, taking control of someone's mind will at most take one panel and can be maintained virtually for nothing.
The point is not that Jean Grey was one of the most powerful telepaths on the planet in the comics, becuase you can easily make a more powerful telepath. The point is that telepathy really is broken. I mean, why would you ever play a muscle guy or an agile guy, when you can get mentally dominated in an instant. And you can tell something is broken when every single hero needs a whole heap load of mental defense just to stay in combat more than one round.
You know what else is funny is in the situational modifiers, if you are "exclusively" resisting mental contorl you can get a +1 situational modifier to your resistance. Yeah, like that'll help. I have to say, I like DS's suggestion. It's much more dramatic, it's more on par with combat, and it's not too complicated. MyPetSlug
|
|
|
Post by psistrike on Jul 18, 2003 16:30:25 GMT -5
The point is that telepathy really is broken. I mean, why would you ever play a muscle guy or an agile guy, when you can get mentally dominated in an instant. And you can tell something is broken when every single hero needs a whole heap load of mental defense just to stay in combat more than one round.MyPetSlug Simply put I'm tried of hearing people say that Telepathy is broken.It is not Telepathy that you consider broken,it is the Option Project Thoughts/Control Others for Telepathy that you consider broken.There is a differance.
|
|
|
Post by ds on Jul 18, 2003 19:13:47 GMT -5
Re: Psistrike
Quite true. It is the Project Thoughts/Control Others options that bugs me. Given that is the only aspect of the power under discussion, that it is located under Telepathy, and that it's much shorter to write Telepathy than Project Thoughts/Control Others, that didn't really seem to be needed. You'll notice my proposed HR wouldn't have touched Telepathy in the general case, only that specific option. No one has been confused by this fact until, apaprently, you.
Re: Dolemite
Not a bad idea, although I'd reverse the multiple on Intelligence and Mental Defense- Intelligence has a variety of other uses, whereas Mental Defense is only good for resisting Telepathy. OTOH, a simple reversal would make one level of Mental Defense exceptionally useful- it puts a time limit that didn't previously exist on the Telepath's control- but no such time limit exists for those without it.
On the other hand, it means it's easy to take control of someone, and hard to maintain that control. Again, not really what's seen in the comics- there's usally a panel or two of 'being taken control of' and then a long period of 'under control'.
|
|
|
Post by psistrike on Jul 18, 2003 19:55:10 GMT -5
Re: Psistrike Quite true. It is the Project Thoughts/Control Others options that bugs me. Given that is the only aspect of the power under discussion, that it is located under Telepathy, and that it's much shorter to write Telepathy than Project Thoughts/Control Others, that didn't really seem to be needed. You'll notice my proposed HR wouldn't have touched Telepathy in the general case, only that specific option. No one has been confused by this fact until, apaprently, you. I wasn't confused by it,I was annoyed that not once did you simply state it was only the Project Thoughts/Control Others Options of Telepathy that you you and others say they don't like how it works instead of always saying that Telepathy is broken.Sorry if I sounded confused to you on the matter.Maybe a better title for this thread would be Fixing Project Thoughts/Control Others.Just a comment and I don't mean to sound rude if I do.
|
|
|
Post by psistrike on Jul 19, 2003 15:13:45 GMT -5
Oops looks like Psistrike the thread killer has struck again. It has happened on other forums before,I post stating my opinion on something and then there won't be another post on the thread for something like 6 or more months after that.I really hope that isn't the case here.If my other post offended anyone then I'm sorry,I've had a low-grade migraine for the past 4 days that just won't go away and I've been having a problem with getting upset more easily because of the pressure right between my eyes.Sorry if I caused any trouble.
|
|