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Post by i3ullseye on Jul 21, 2003 16:39:58 GMT -5
No, invulnerability to mind stops mental illusions, mental blasts, mind control, mind reading, basic telepathy, etc... etc...
Mind Control is ONE aspect of this. When Invulnerability for 3 can stop ALL fire/heat based attacks, it is certainly within the scope of this modifier to allow it to stop all mind control effects. You seem to not want to see this.
I am not sure what we can do to make it more clear that mind control is INCREDIBLY powerful, but certainly not unstoppable. It is not broken, or in need of fixing, but I can CERTAINLY see where some gaming groups, some players or some GMs would want to run it differently than as written.
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Post by psistrike on Jul 21, 2003 17:58:36 GMT -5
Maybe it would be better to reboot this subject on a new thread titled something like "Alternate rules for how to run Mind Control" so it can get back on track for what DS really wished to discuss from the start. For my part in getting it off-topic in the first place I'm sorry DS. Please forgive me for getting upset for people simply using the phrase "telepathy is broken" even though I know that you and others only meant Project Thoughts/Control Others.The day I posted that I was having a really bad day and I'm sorry for taking it out on others here with that post.I'll try not to do so again in the future.
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Post by ds on Jul 22, 2003 0:14:55 GMT -5
Don't worry about it. The tone miffed me a bit, thus my snippy response, but it's cool. And we haven't really gotten as far off topic as you'd think- part of my inital point was that Control Others, as written, was broken. A point I'll now concede. I still would say it's unbalanced for it's power, and that it generates something of a RPS system of characters, where Straight Telepath > Straight Brawler > Mentally Shielded Brawler > Straight Telepath, but the Telepath no longer has the all consuming advantage I initally attribute them. I still think it should take multiple panels, be actively resistable, and generally more dramatic thou
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Post by psistrike on Jul 22, 2003 0:33:35 GMT -5
How about the initial mind control works like the rules do in the book but everytime the telepath tries to make someone do something against thier nature such as harm a loved one,etc. the telepath has to spend energy again to get past the person's total mental defense to keep control.Also the more severe or against the person's nature an action is the GM give them Sit. Mod. to their effective mental defense which would make it even harder for the telepath to keep control over them. Something like a +4-+6 Sit. Mod. to resist the mind control if they try to make you kill someone you love,maybe even higher if the GM thinks it's appropriate like the telepath trying to make them kill their own wife or child(note:these example assume a villain is in control of the person.). How does this sound?
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Post by justice on Jul 27, 2003 2:31:58 GMT -5
I think you need to go back to rule zero. I feel your NEEDLESS change to mind control is just a lack of creativity to beat it. I think that if I am in a game that I know what is going to happen because the gm says: He tries to read your mind. Is down right ridiculous, what kind of game is that? I think we have some obvious differences in styles, but I was offended when you said "those of us with basic literacy know telepathy." If you are going to be like that then look up the word interpretation. Because in your effort to pick apart my post, and make me look dumb, you simply said I dont agree with it. Well you make it very clear that your house rule is how it should be done. And my opinion is that if your that focused on the rules and "fixing" the game then you are not playin my game. Next time just keep your little side comments out of your posts. For this one I inculded mine.
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Post by ds on Jul 28, 2003 9:42:57 GMT -5
It doesn't really take creativity. It just takes either 3w or 4w stones at character creation (depending on with you agree with Bullseye's interpretation of the Control Invulnerability). Nothing creative about it.
Of course, this style (playing by the rules as they are written + 'beating' a power) also implies that you've either got rampant player vs player conflict, or an adversarial game.
I've tried to understand what you're saying repeatedly here, and don't get it. What what?
I think you're saying that adversarial games aren't fun. I'd mostly agree with you- certainly, Marvel isn't well suited for such.
I wish I was you people. You can get offended just on an internet message forum about a roleplaying game.
Meanwhile, you can't actually defend yourself. The rules as they stand are very clear on the matter. If you think otherwise, then you're either in error or changing the rules yourself.
If you are changing the rules, great. Post YOUR version, and we can discuss the relative merits and flaws of both. But a post that assumes things are different than written without explanation of how they are different or even that they are different will be treated as though it were in error. Why? Cause to every other reader except you, it would appear to actually BE in error.
As was, you said that Telepathy's duration was vauge and up to the GM- when having simply read Telepathy (specifically the Control Others option) would reveal otherwise. You were factually wrong. Deal.
That's a helluva an 'interpretation'. Tell me how you're 'interpretating' this- "Project Thoughts / Control Others (+2 to Cost Level) Overcome mental defense. +1 for broadcast. 1 stone/Panel to maintain control. Includes Illusions (above) at no cost." (MURPG, pg 59) (Emphasis mine) -to the vauge duration you so dearly want.
You want to play that way? Great! Do so! But don't pretend you're interpretating what's actually written, or get annoyed when people tell you that you're houseruling something yourself.
Actually, I lost the debate. Nice try, thanks for playing.
Or rather, I lost the 'Control others is so totally broken forever' debate. Not as much the 'controling others should be made more dramatic and like comic books than it is now'.
Ouch, I am stung! Nay, undone!
True. But I'd frankly question how much of a 'game' you're actually playing. After all, you seem blithely willing to ignore the rules whenever they don't fit with what you want- meaning they aren't really rules, more like a guideline. A game isn't a game without rules.
Nor was your example even an instance of making the players feel cool and clever despite the rules. No, you specifically chose an example of breaking the rules to make the players feel either frustrated or stupid. Good job.
I think I can safely give your 'game' a pass.
The intense irony of this comment prompted my entire response. If you hadn't told me not to be snide while being so yourself, And Recognizing The Fact of this inherent contradiction, I probally would've given this a pass.
I don't deny being snide, sarcastic, and actually daring to make fun of my opposition. Y'know, like I do in real life, while conducting a serious debate. If the guy I'm arguing with claims that blue is red, I'm sure as hell going to not just say 'no it's not', I'm going to exploit the weakness this has left in his arguement to maximum potential. Rhetoric- fun since ancient Greece!
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Post by psistrike on Aug 13, 2003 16:15:06 GMT -5
I am the thread killer and the thread resurrector.We never did really figure out how to make mind control more balanced with the rest of the system.I wish to see some more opinions on how we can do this without changing the Option too much. ;D
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Post by Bladephyre on Apr 11, 2004 5:11:40 GMT -5
This is the basic point, with a high enough Telepathy and/or Intelegece you can take control of someone and they can never break free under the rules in the book. That is just plain wrong. There will never be a solution to this probelm that both sides will find agreable. The main problem is this, lets take two people in general. Captain Knife with an Intelegence of 4(Which is higher than average) is going to attack Queen Mind. She has a Telepathy of 5 and a 5 intelegnce. Unless he spent stones at creation for the EXACT reason of getting over mental powers, he CAN NOT WIN, ever. All she has to do is spend spend 5 stones in telepathy/control minds to snag him and sit and jut spend 1 stone a panel to control him forever.She is undefeatable unless you go first.
Nobody wants to have to spend points when creating a character simply so they can defend themself against 1 specific power. If I want to mage a Hulk type tank, I simply can not beat a telepath ever. We are not even talking about a Prof. X level character either, you could controll ANYone with less than 8 intelegence+ mental defences with just a 4 intelegence and a 4 telepath with the controll and intelegence bonus options. That is only 11W stones to defeat THOR and HULK at the same time and keep them controlled forever! You could litterally create a telepat at character creation that could defeat any non-telepath/mental defense character in the game.
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Post by sphynx on Apr 11, 2004 6:20:09 GMT -5
Interesting thread. People read the Telepathy (primarily the Control Thought) rules differently than I read them. Perhaps the best solution is to re-interprete the rules. Here's how I initially read them. Modifiers and Bonus help in overcomming Resistance, having no effect on the required AN to accomplish something. If Telepathy score is not greater than Intelligence of target (Minimum AN to overcome), Control fails 100% of the time, no matter what your Intelligence or PsychoCentric is at. If it's greater than the target's intelligence, then you add in modifiers and bonuses. I might offer a chance to overcome anyhows with a +2 or +4 resistance due to an insufficient understanding of Telepathy (like the character turned in to me with a Telapathy/Telekinesis of 1 PsychoCentric of 5, and Int of 7) The reason I say this is because alot of people seem dependant on Int Bonus to overcome a target. +2 Int Bonus, +2 Control Others, very rare is the telepath who has this higher than 6, and rarer still the telepath who doesn't have other positive options thus making it even rarer for a Telepathy over 4 or 5. My PC's usually have an Int of 6. That alone would be enough to yawn at most control attempts against me. The rare "only have Int Bonus and Control" who has Telepathy at a 6 can then contend against my Mental Defense (something I always take), and will probably win, but by that point, such a specialized character should win in that setting. But if you add in a resistance factor based on the fact that my Int is higher than their telepathy, chances are about 50% that they succeed, and that's really a 1-trick pony. Anyhows, my interpretation may be way off, sorry if it bothers anyone, but it seems alot fairer than the rules I've seen posted on here so far, so I'll just keep nicely assuming my interpretation is the intended Canon way of doing things. Sphynx
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Post by i3ullseye on Apr 11, 2004 14:14:31 GMT -5
Sit Mods atate that actively resisting a telepath adds 1 to their resistance. Isn't much but it can make the difference.
I don't like the flat AN vs Int rule. This nullifies all other modifiers and bonuses completely. If this is the case, then why have them?
Telepathy IS powerful, and the control option is extremely powerful. But again, this goes back to my other statements regarding its use in the comics. there are actually quite a few telepaths in the comics, especially the X books. But they almost NEVER control peoples minds. Heroes just don't do that lightly, and nor shoudl players.
Most of the strong telepaths have support roles also, and do not actively go on missions as much as the 'brutes' might. And when in close, telepaths are usually much less resistant to damage than other hero types, so one good hit and down goes the telepath.
I think the best control point is to explain that control others is NOT to be used lightly, or the villains will start to do the same. Or limit it at creation in the first place. i know limiting characters isn't fun for anyone involved, but if it helps the game as a whole, then it is worth the small bit of displeasure during character creation to ensure a much more enjoyable game overall.
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