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Post by wayne on Oct 3, 2003 9:03:07 GMT -5
OK, I'm here asking for some advice...
Our group plays infrequently, and recently one member was eager to spend his lines of experience toward a skill he's been wanting from day one: Inventing. Our discussion eventually went toward the possible ways we could let each other apply LOEs toward increases.
We figured that spending one LOE to get Invention at Lv. 1, then the other 9 to get it up to Lv. 2 was way too lenient. Moreover, just having every level increase for any Action, including new ones, cost 10 LOEs was a bit unfair. (Going from 1 to 2 in Close Combat is NOT the same as going from 1 to 2 in Phoenix Force.) What we came up with is what I'll call the "True Cost" Method.
Basically, each LOE is worth 1 red creation stone. The cost for any new Action, or any "level up", is the actual cost one would have incurred if one had bought the new Action/level at creation. Ditto for adding new options. So going from Close Combat 1 to Close Combat 2 only costs 1 LOE. Going from CC Lv. 10 to Lv. 11, however, would cost 15 LOE (5 white stones is the cost difference.) Having purchased options for CC might have changed the cost. We modify new Action purchases if plausable (the player had been planning for Invention from the start, and only wants to make use of it as a doctor (!!!), so we let him get it at a discount) but keep "level ups" to the "true cost."
The thing is... I'm wondering if this is too lenient too. It seems to price higher-level skill upgrades well, but is it really a good idea to go from Lv. 1 to Lv. 2 so quickly in low-cost skills? Have any of you guys tried anything like this out?
Just looking for some thoughts here....
-Wayne
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Post by xavier on Oct 3, 2003 10:06:16 GMT -5
This is the way i handle LOE: - from AN 0 to AN 1: one LOE - from AN 1 to upper levels: ten LOE/level - must add 1 LOE for every cost level modifier
Examples: - from Social Skills 0 to Social Skills 1: you need 1 LOE - from Social Skills 1 to Social Skills 2: you need 10 LOE - from Ninja 0 to Ninja 1: you need 1 (normal cost) + 5 (cost level modifier) = 6 LOE - from Ninja 1 to Ninja 2: you need 10 (normal cost) + 5 (cost level modifier) = 15 LOE
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Post by etcetc on Oct 3, 2003 10:53:10 GMT -5
This seems counterintuitive to the way LOEs work.
Each Line is a representation of a formative moment in the character's career. You choose what Actions your Lines apply to every session; they don't just hang in space like generic "experience points," waiting to be used when you feel the whim.
I'm not going to tell anyone how to run their game, but if that's the way you play it, you totally miss out on the "journal-esque" function of Lines, as well as never being able to use the one-stone "appropriate Line" bonus, which I think is neat.
As for going from level 1 to 2 so quickly, a character can gain 1-5 Lines a session, so it would take a minimum of two sessions to go from level 1 to level 2, assuming your character achieved all mission objectives, roleplayed so brilliantly that the character got an extra Line both sessions, and still managed to convince the GM that all their character did was tied to one Action. Otherwise, progression is going to be a bit slower. I think this is plenty strict myself, especially if a group doesn't meet very frequently.
Another thing the MURPG system as-is does is allow the character to improve at the things they focus on. By your method, a high-Inventing, low-Close-Combat scientist character can spend session after session slaving in a laboratory and still be waiting to get a higher Inventing, but get in one streetfight and up their Close Combat. Is this what you want? Why?
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Post by beyonder on Oct 3, 2003 11:23:32 GMT -5
I agreee with Carl, except that I do not see why the first level in something only "costs" one line. I require the same 10 lines for a 0 to 1 increase as for 1 to 2 or any other increase. 'Course, now that I think about it, maybe I should be "charging" one line plus one more per point of cost level modifier, like in (as I just realised) Xavier's method. I'd still make any further increase (1 to 2 on up) cost the flat 10 lines, because of Carl's argument, but I can sure see why it would take more practice to learn the basics of Inventing than of Social Skills.
This whole discussion brings up another point, but I'll begin a new thread ("Specialty Modifiers") for it. I wonder how many lines it costs to start a thread? ....
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Post by piratespice on Oct 3, 2003 11:55:23 GMT -5
Wayne, I agree with you completely. Your method is pretty much exactly what I use in my games. The LOE method, as written, is grossly imabalanced and cheats characters with less expensive powers. Having a sliding scale for character creation, then a flat cost for "XP" (so to speak) is guaranteed to create an imbalance (just check out any White Wolf product if you doubt me).
Mind you, as Carl pointed out, LOEs have a wonderful "journal-esque" feel that you don't want to lose. Don't think of Lines as "Experience Points" to be spent. They would function the same way they normally do, but the number of Lines required for an increase is based on the "cost" in red stones, not a flat 10.
I haven't seen a problem with quick increases at low levels. You can still only have 9 Actions, and considering that you can only use two of them per Panel, having a bunch of Actions at 1 or 2 isn't that useful. If you're really worried about it, just regulate the number of Lines you're giving out at early levels. After all, more powerful characters tend to have more opportunities to use their abilities (and more luxury to try new things)...hence, more Lines of Experience.
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Post by wayne on Oct 4, 2003 8:11:39 GMT -5
Hey everyone, thanks for all the responses so far. I do appreciate them. Xavier, I like the simplicity of your idea. I might have brought it up if I had remembered it when discussing this with the other guys. I'm also glad that someone else thinks spending one line to get a level 1 in any skill, including the more expensive ones (Concentration, Genetic Engineering, Inventing, etc.) is too lenient. Otherwise, if you wanted, say, those 3 skills, why pay for them? Use your stones to pump your other abilities to the max, then just wait a mission or two. Bam!, instant skills, at level 1, saving 2, 4, and 4 stones respectively. As far as the "journal entry" nature of LOEs, I'm aware of that. In fact, that's how I write mine, noting events that happened in the mission that I was wanting to focus on. (I think the other guys got this too.) To address what you brought up Carl, one of the ideas behind this method, why I thought it was "fair", was that it minimized "cheating" with LOEs. Again, the above example... if it cost the same 10 lines to boost Close Combat and Inventing by one level, and I wanted both, I'd have a *strong* tendency to buy Close Combat as high as I could, and just get Inventing at level 1 (or not at all!) and spend all my lines on that--saving creation stones. As far as the streetfight example, well, I actually think that's accurate. Part of the reason behind the high cost of Inventing is that, to do it well (like in the comics) would take a lot of training and practice. On the other hand, if you've never been in a streetfight, someone who's just been in one would--everything else being equal--have a *serious* advantage over you. But as you get more experienced, it takes more training and such to get noticeable improvements. Anyway, my main concern behind this method was how it might affect things to have players walk into the first mission of an issue with level 1 in a few cheap skills, and end the issue (third misson) with all of them up to level 3. Not a big jump, and probably accurate--especially if they actually, say, USED Close Combat at level 1!--but still... maybe a minimum of two lines per level increase is an idea (I wouldn't want to just make each line worth half a stone; the current max. of this system [15 LOEs for high-end stuff] sounds more reasonable.) -Wayne
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Post by Hypester on Oct 7, 2003 10:25:00 GMT -5
I understand where you guys are coming from... and it makes sense in a way, but I just don't see it like you do.
In reality, if I practice ninja and you practice boxing... if we practice just as intensely for just as long, we both get better at basically the same rate. Just because ninja is harder doesn't make getting better harder, it makes learning it in the first place harder/more difficult/more costly to experience (or lines thereof).
IMHO, the Phx Force Ninja has already paid for the powerfulness and potential and the close combat ranged combat person has started out more powerful since their actions were cheaper. They will both, assuming they play together always, get better with time and, yes, eventually, the Phx Force Ninja will be far more effective in combat, cuz Combat Boy will have 7's in both and PhxNinja will have 4 and he has great bonuses like double weapons and 8 extra stones/panel. But he's paid for it AND been weaker for a while. He deserves to get better WITHOUT Being penalized for picking a powerful power.
Yes I know that Taking Metamorphisis from 4 to 5 and taking Acrobatics from 4 to 5 for the same amount of experience seems unfair... but one person bought the action at 15 stones and the other bought it at 2. IMHO it's already balanced... people who start out weak with beastlier powers naturally rise above as time goes on and those who have high numbers in weaker actions must learn to use what they do have very well... which they've already done since they're doing the EXACT same things they did before, just better.
BUT I realize every group is different and there are certainly things that MY group abuses...
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Post by wayne on Oct 7, 2003 11:01:22 GMT -5
I understand where you guys are coming from... and it makes sense in a way, but I just don't see it like you do. Hey, I see your side too. I think this is a productive discussion so far. Obviously, the game designers agreed with your line of thinking. They may have even factored all of your thoughts in when structuring the pricing scale and Action costs. After all, EVENTUALLY everything hits Cost Level 10+, at which point even the "true cost" of a "level up" is an across-the-board 5 white stones for all Actions. That's one of the advantages of the system we chose though. Once anything hits that Cost Level 10+ wall, the number of lines to improve it is the same. But it still allows you to "level up" in a way that seems to minimize "fudging". When LOEs translate directly into creation stones, as opposed to levels, you have NO reason to juggle your stats at creation time to squeeze more creation stones out of the system, because you wind up paying for it later anyway. Hence, there's no reason to buy Inventing at 1 and Close Combat at 10 as opposed to swapping the stats, if you're hoping to save stones via mathematical subterfuge and get a 10 in both. Because even when you've got 90 LOEs, with this method you aren't deciding whether to translate them 1-for-1 into 9 "cheap" CC levels or 9 "expensive" Inventing levels--you're translating them at the "market rate", so to speak, and get a varying amount of levels per Action out of those 90 LOEs. Just as you would were you spending 30 bonus stones. Again, the advantage of this system is to hinder character creation fudging, but not growth, because eventually this system BECOMES a literal 15-lines-per-level growth system. (More than 10, but it'll only count for powers that are already up there anyway; I don't think it'll matter too much.) -Wayne
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Post by ozbot on Oct 8, 2003 1:14:46 GMT -5
Another thing to consider is alternative uses for LOE. Some of the ideas my friends and I have been playing with:
~ Using one LOE for a +1 stone from the General Pool. (Or using a LOE to replenish a white stone of health, which is way more powerful) ~ Using one LOE to use a contact to help out with a plot point (this is similiar to another game's use of experience points, I think Feng Shui?) ~ Usnig one LOE for acquiring temporary +1 piece of equipment ~ Something else I'm blanking out on right now.
The idea is that this doesn't replace storytelling, of course, as players would still have to justify their choices with storytelling, but it would allow me as the GM to give out LOE more freely and let players choose how to spend them, even though it may mean taking longer to get higher Action/Ablility scores.
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Post by beyonder on Oct 8, 2003 7:35:02 GMT -5
How do you run that, Ozbot? Are Lines generic points which can be used in the ways you mentioned or written as actual Lines, or does the player have to write an actual Line to, for instance, acquire an extra piece of equipment? (That was one long and confusing sentence. ) This method is reminiscent of the good ol' Marvel Super-Heroes RPG. I think I like it, but I'd like more details, please. ;D Xavier: I used your method (for 0 to 1 AN) last night. The player was very pleased not to have to write 10 Lines for his first point in Leadership!
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Post by wayne on Oct 8, 2003 8:23:36 GMT -5
Another thing to consider is alternative uses for LOE. Some of the ideas my friends and I have been playing with: ~ Using one LOE for a +1 stone from the General Pool. (Or using a LOE to replenish a white stone of health, which is way more powerful) ~ Using one LOE to use a contact to help out with a plot point (this is similiar to another game's use of experience points, I think Feng Shui?) ~ Usnig one LOE for acquiring temporary +1 piece of equipment ~ Something else I'm blanking out on right now. The idea is that this doesn't replace storytelling, of course, as players would still have to justify their choices with storytelling, but it would allow me as the GM to give out LOE more freely and let players choose how to spend them, even though it may mean taking longer to get higher Action/Ablility scores. Hmmm... I like some of these. Especially the "spend a line to call up a contact." (Or perhaps, dedicate a line to establishing a contact, who you can call up at GM discretion for reasons appropriate to the relationship.) I think I'll bring this up to our group! -Wayne
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Post by i3ullseye on Oct 8, 2003 10:19:19 GMT -5
I run it like the book. At the end of a session i give out lines. They have to be assigned to actions before the next session starts. Yes, you already paid way more for the powerful actions, so there is no need to penalize again when increasing it. The idea here is that characters in comics actually progress about the same rate across issues, and that is what the lines simulate. And they simulate it rather well.
What about gaining an action at rank 1 for only 1 line?
You are limited to 9 actions total. This limits this from being abused quite well. Pretty much anything in this game can be tried unskilled with just abilities, so adding that action at rank 1 is adding a grand total of 1 potential stone. Not much overall. And once you have filled in 9, then you have to climb just as steeply as anyone else to icnrease it from there.
Also, it has to make sense that you can pick something up for 1 line. I might just let a telekinetic pick up flight at 1, but I would not let soemone spontaneously develop energy absorption. So this is strictly used for mundane skills (no, you can just decide to know Ninja) or creative uses of powers you already have.
And I woudl NEVER let lines be stored and used like bonus points. No way in my games would I ever elt them be traded for +1 stone from the general pool, or anything of that nature. This goes back to an earlier observation I had about discussions regarding this......
Seems most people who want to 'improve' the system always come up with some challenge/fate/karma system. They want a way for their character to earn bonus stones or 'get out of jail free' points. That totally goes against the basic nature of this game, and the comic theme.
If you want to have a better chance of doing soemthing, then get creative within the context of the game world and earn modifiers. NEVER shoudl the players have free stones 'just because'. And falling back on this crutch, this do over mentality, will actually ruin a key element that makes this game feel more like comics than any other. The random element has been removed, but the mystery of difficulties makea things challenging. Never do you feel like you were cheated by a bad die roll. Your success or failure is difrectly determined by how much effort you apply, and how creatively you apply it.
To add any element of bonus stones 'just because' cheapens this. And it ruins the key balance of characters, that you have a certain amount of effort to apply, and the only way to achieve your tougher objectives is with creative ideas within the context of the game world. Otherwise you are just saying... well, 6 isn't enough, but I want to add my 2 free stones so i beat him.
Bleh......
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Post by ozbot on Oct 8, 2003 18:24:26 GMT -5
Beyonder said: How do you run that, Ozbot? Are Lines generic points which can be used in the ways you mentioned or written as actual Lines, or does the player have to write an actual Line to, for instance, acquire an extra piece of equipment? (That was one long and confusing sentence. )
This method is reminiscent of the good ol' Marvel Super-Heroes RPG. I think I like it, but I'd like more details, please.
I say: So far, it's just been discussion with my friends. We've never play tested it or anything. AFAIAC, the acquisition of Lines would be exactly the same as it is in the book-- after a session, players dedicate Lines to Actions they would like to improve. But, if they choose to, they could sacrifice a Line to gain one of the advantages we were discussing. Obviously, there would be a limit if we decided to sacrifice a Line, so no one could get a +9 from the general pool. That Line would have to be erased in order to sacrifice it, and maybe there would be a rule that you couldn't perform the same action to renew that Line or the acquistion of Lines would get redundant (and it would make the sacrifice more poignant.)
Bullseye said: And I woudl NEVER let lines be stored and used like bonus points. No way in my games would I ever elt them be traded for +1 stone from the general pool, or anything of that nature. This goes back to an earlier observation I had about discussions regarding this......
I say: Yeah, I know your opinion on this issue. Quite frankly, you changed my mind on this issue a while back, and I hold to the rules pretty stringently. I realize that even with old-school Marvel RPG, my friends and I never used house rules until a year or two of playing it. And as I said above, it's just discussion my friends and I have had. I'm not sure we would actually play test it for some time.
Bullseye said: Seems most people who want to 'improve' the system always come up with some challenge/fate/karma system. They want a way for their character to earn bonus stones or 'get out of jail free' points. That totally goes against the basic nature of this game, and the comic theme.
I say: Actually, the discussion DIDN'T start with how to cheat or 'get out of jail free.' We started discussing Lines and wondered if some characters, particularly the pre-generated ones, would be advancing very quickly in relatively few sessions. After all, we've played TSR Marvel for YEARS, and the advancement of characters were paced pretty evenly. We could see this getting out of hand with the MURPG for our group. SO the alternative uses of Lines would be meant to mitigate that rapid advancement. Characters could 'spend' Karma right away, having to bank it up later.
And I could argue that 'spending Karma' IS in the nature of a game/comic theme.
Bullseye said: Your success or failure is difrectly determined by how much effort you apply, and how creatively you apply it. To add any element of bonus stones 'just because' cheapens this. And it ruins the key balance of characters, that you have a certain amount of effort to apply, and the only way to achieve your tougher objectives is with creative ideas within the context of the game world. Otherwise you are just saying... well, 6 isn't enough, but I want to add my 2 free stones so i beat him.
I say: Not really. (I never weighed in the argument you've had before, so let me throw my two cents in at the risk of sparking another debate.) My players never knew what the 'magic number' was to beat in order to succeed, as it should be. When they were spending Karma after the die roll is thrown, it was to create a new die roll, before they ever knew if they succeeded or failed. Sure, there were times when they'd spend the Karma to create a Herculean effort (total of 100) just to make sure, but why can't that be a part of the comic book storytelling? Think-- how else would the Last Ditch Effort be mimicked in the game? There is a modifier the GM can use/player could call for (on page 104, Style Modifiers), but why not let the player have *worked* for it, sacrificing something valuable like Lines? (and needless to say, the player won't know EXACTLY what the difficulty to beat is, so there is still some mystery/strategy in the decision.) This way, even if the Energy Reserve is low, the hero could sacrifice some Lines to replenish it for a last ditch effort. Players like it, which means they have fun, which is the point of the game overall, no?
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Post by i3ullseye on Oct 8, 2003 20:06:15 GMT -5
Hehe methinks you are taking this as aimed directly at you, and it wasn't. The most vocal outcry was on teh 2 group lists. I don't think it ever escalated to that level here, so I was in no way saying what you typed was an extreme want of character freebie points. But that IS what the vast majority wanted on the mail lists.
And since so many seemed to want that, and were attacking the basic rules without actually using them in the spirit intended in the first place, is why I stopped posting on those as much.
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Post by darkhawk on Aug 24, 2004 7:31:58 GMT -5
I kinda like this...
My only opinion is the book is great... very to the point about it.. the only thing i would change.. would be one thing..
the cost for getting a new action.
when buying a new action (mundain) it would take a number of lines equal to 1 plus the modifier.. and then the standard ten after that.. that is just to show the continued effort needed for the more difficult actions..
like a character wants to learn ninja.. would hafta "train" harder then someone trying to learn basic close combat.. so instead of costing 1 LOE like CC.. it would cost 6 LOE i think that works pretty good..
makes a player really think about how bad his character wants to persue the action.. how much time they want to spend on it.
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