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Post by thanos on May 20, 2007 16:17:50 GMT -5
Putting 16 stones into defense leaves 4 (on a regular basis) left for doing things, like flying, hitting, etc. One thing everybody is forgetting is PAIN. Nobody wants to get hurt and players should roleplay that out. If a GM finds a player who isn't RPing their challenges or anything close to a realistic character when it comes to PAIN then guess which player gets 0 lines of XP. Wolverine is a good example. He still screams when he gets his butt chewed off. He tells the guy that they will have to do better than that, bub, but he still feels the pain.
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Post by Pope Mega Force on May 20, 2007 18:03:02 GMT -5
Pain is for roleplaying purposes. Yes. But you're not getting the message that the power combination is unfair when you treat it as instant healing factor the entire time.
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Post by WildKnight on May 20, 2007 19:04:59 GMT -5
I really think its just a matter for the individual GM to decide. I, as a GM, fall on the same side as Popeman... since I've never encountered this combo I've never had reason to work up a house rule, and Im glad somebody else has done the leg work.
But if a GM wants to put up with that kind of thing... well thats his choice. Mind you I feel sorry for the *other* players in his game... if the NPC villains are capable of harming the indestructible giant, imagine what they will do with minimal effort to every other PC.
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Post by Pope Mega Force on May 20, 2007 20:33:00 GMT -5
Exactly my point. Thanks, Wildknight. You of course have to admit me a grudge though. I hate it when someone sums up what I've said and much more coherently in a single short post. Ah well, doesn't matter.
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Post by herugrim on May 20, 2007 23:27:04 GMT -5
I really think its just a matter for the individual GM to decide. I, as a GM, fall on the same side as Popeman... since I've never encountered this combo I've never had reason to work up a house rule, and Im glad somebody else has done the leg work. But if a GM wants to put up with that kind of thing... well thats his choice. Mind you I feel sorry for the *other* players in his game... if the NPC villains are capable of harming the indestructible giant, imagine what they will do with minimal effort to every other PC. but, you could say that about any beefy fighter in a team. They can take much more damage then the local psychic.
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Post by WildKnight on May 21, 2007 6:12:29 GMT -5
You could say that, but it wouldnt be true. Wonderman, Colossus, hell, even Thor... look at them as they're statted. These are the toughest hombres in the Marvel U. All of them can be taken down, though (in the case of Wonderman you'd need to do a 15 stone attack all at once, but thats possible, even for the moderate villains)
In order to take down super-giant-colossal-man, you need to be able to generate a ridiculous 30+ stone attack... Anyone capable of doing that will be able to flick his wrist and destroy every other hero on your team, possibly all at once. Not nearly as much so with the 15 stone attacker.
Equally important... we've been ignoring the fact that due to his size and strength, SGCM will be able to do tremendous damage as well... meaning that if the GM wants villain groups to stand any chance, they'll *have* to find ways to deal with him, every time.
Its like any other instance of power gaming. The real problem with it isnt that the GM can't deal with it. Of course he can... hes the GM, he can do whatever he wants. The real problem is that the GM HAS to deal with it, and worse still, it forces the other players to sink to that level and that kind of thinking, if they dont want to be consistently overshadowed by their supposed team mate.
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Post by herugrim on May 21, 2007 9:19:05 GMT -5
Isn't that what Superman does to the Justice League? How about Thor and The Hulk in the Avengers? Granted, Marvel's powerhouses aren't quite on par with old Supes, but what kind of team of villains could be able to take on Thor and The Hulk at once, and what would those villains do to the other heroes if they got ahold of them?
I can see your points, it certainly unbalances things. Giant Growth in and of itself is probably a big loophole in the system. As you say, it's up to the GM and to each his own...
I don't mind it myself. In my campaign with Thanos' character, the whole team is running literally from an army with advanced technology (typically nothing less then +6 wpn) and taking down giants is there specialty. It's been my observation so far that if anyone's got an advantage, it's the telepaths. When you've got a telepathy of 7, it's going to be extremely rare to find someone you can't just take control of. I find it's easier to come up with a tougher thug then some reason for them to have a mental defense high enough to give these telepaths a rough time, and even if I did, what are the telepaths supposed to do then? Congratulations, you've balanced the game by challenging each player with his or her own strength, but with that strength drained or lost, they are now essentially defenseless, thusly defeating the purpose of the game...
Anyway, my point is that you could say a lot of abilities are overpowered in certain instances. I always figured that trying to work through these challenges is just part of a GM. We aren't just a hitch for everything to revolve around, there's work to do. The only time I'll say "No, you can't use that" is when there actually is nothing I could do to stop it, short of throwing in someone on par with Galactus.
Well, that's how I look at in anyway.
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Post by WildKnight on May 21, 2007 9:57:03 GMT -5
Ummm... Superman and Thor are in the comics, not a game. Theres a world of difference between fiction and gaming. Writers can do whatever they want. GMs have to define things by the rules of the system.
Take a look at Thor IN MURPG. Hes not nearly as hard to kill as your giant would be.
All that said... fine. You disagree. Got it. Now let the rest of us get back to discussing how we'd address it in our games.
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Post by thanos on May 21, 2007 13:21:35 GMT -5
Wildknight,
It depends on which way you interpret IHF. Does it heal every attack right after it happens in the middle of a panel, at the end of the pane, or at the beginning of the following panel after the damage has actually had an effect and Energy stones regenerated between the panels.
If it is immediately then I would have a huge problem with anybody taking that combo and I have a huge problem with IHF and anybody taking it.
If it heals at the end of the Panel, then you can gang up on the guy with several less powerful villians (who get bonuses to do attack). I also would not allow Reflexive Dodge for the target if anybody attacking him was less than his Height in range.
On the other hand, if the damage is healed at the start of the following panel then nothing needs to be dealth with. A character can get ganged up on and knocked out, they don't regenerate stones off of their full health and thus can't maintain a high Off/Def ratio with their huge regeneration rate. Just wear the guy down with lots villians or thugs that the rest of the hero's can also deal with.
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Post by herugrim on May 21, 2007 15:24:35 GMT -5
Ummm... Superman and Thor are in the comics, not a game. Theres a world of difference between fiction and gaming. Writers can do whatever they want. GMs have to define things by the rules of the system. Take a look at Thor IN MURPG. Hes not nearly as hard to kill as your giant would be. All that said... fine. You disagree. Got it. Now let the rest of us get back to discussing how we'd address it in our games. I was talking about them statistically, in the game. If players were playing with characters along the line of the original Avengers, the ones playing Thor and Hulk would have a terrible advantage together, one that would be difficult to handle statistically with a single villain, without disabling the other opponents. The point is they've done it in the comics, and the writers have had to find a believable way to work around it, and the players shouldn't expect the GMs to be lazy and chose not to deal with it themselves. But if you want me to bow out because you can't comprehend what I'm trying to say, then I'll be happy to. There are more important, and more entertaining, things I can do to keep busy.
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Post by WildKnight on May 21, 2007 18:36:19 GMT -5
Herugrim... your previous statements dont correlate to that. Very clearly Superman couldn't be considered for his effect in game, as he doesn't exist in an official capacity for MURPG.
And again... take a look at Thor. Yes, hes HUGELY more powerful than most other characters. What hes not is indestructible. Theres a difference between one character playing a 66 stone character (say Cap) and another playing a 150 stone character (Hulk), and one player playing a 40 stone character with Toughness 3, and another playing a 40 stone character who can survive a nuclear holocaust.
Thanos... my interpretation of IHF is that it heals you instantly, literally. The reason I say this is that the description of it clearly states "you have to be taken down by one attack." Not "in one panels worth of attacks." Also, IHF wouldn't be nearly worth the cost if you could be taken down by a series of attacks in the same page. I mean, it'd be a great ability... but not worth what it costs.
IHF alone isn't that big a deal. A normal character (Durability 5, for instance) only requires a moderately powerful attack to drain him completely. Hell even a beast like Wonderman, arguably one of the most indestructible characters in the comics, only takes 24 stones to take down... and his CAD is worth ALOT more than the 40 stones it takes to create the giant we're talking about.
In the end the question, for me, will ALWAYS be one of balance. There are a ton of "legal" characters that are abusively powerful. I would much rather tell a single player no than let a group choose between sinking to that level of power gaming, or being made useless by one uber-character in their midst.
As I've stated repeatedly, though... Telepathy is still far and away more broken than just about any other option, including this one. And that doesnt even require a combo... its just written horribly. So dont feel like Im singling this one thing out... there are a TON of problems with the way MURPG runs if the GM isnt willing to say no and re-write a few hideously written rules.
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Post by Pope Mega Force on May 21, 2007 19:54:10 GMT -5
Again, Wildknight, I do have to agree with you on a lot of that. Except your interpretation of the rules. We can all admit that one thing they didn't do with the books, is fine tune things. Look at the description of Instant Healing Factor. Twice it says in a panel, and then it says all in one blow. And yet go to Sersi and Klaw's bios, and it says that Instant Healing Factor gives you 1 white per round and 2 red per white. The books were written poorly and one thing they allowed for is cheap and unfair powergaming.
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Post by malice on May 21, 2007 20:03:04 GMT -5
You mean Wonderman? Klaw has no Healing Factor I know of. You're correct that the IHF is printed incorrectly in the CAD sections though.
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Post by WildKnight on May 22, 2007 5:54:46 GMT -5
I think hes talking about Wonderman... IHF is definately wrong in the CADs in the books... it wouldnt be worth NEARLY its cost if it only healed 1 white per round.
As far as my interpretation... I tend to try to follow the examples rather than the wording of the other sections, because I think the "examples" show what the designers were thinking.
For instance, for a long time I had a house rule that "Control Others" (the Telepathy option) only allowed you to hold the person in place (until I realized even that was completely overpowered at a cost of only 1 stone per panel to maintain), because the combat example has Jean freezing Juggernaut... rather than sending Mr. Unstoppable to chase down Mystique when she runs away, which would have made ALOT more sense if she were capable of full control.
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Post by thanos on May 22, 2007 16:43:15 GMT -5
Jean Gray uses TK to hold Juggerbut, not Telepathy (he is immune do to his helmit [Caption pg 59 main book]).
I agree that IHF is over powered if it heals damage immediately after it happens in the middle of a panel. Then the same guy with 5 Dur and 1 Toughness (no AP, no 2x Dam) becames that much more of a tank. Although Thor could take him down in 1 blow regardless! Should have given Thor 1 more Dur to max out his offense capability.
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