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Post by Kaimontfendo on Dec 15, 2008 21:48:18 GMT -5
Alright, so I came up with this idea yesterday for a martial artist who can block the flow of vital energy, and thus block the use of superpowers as well. On one hand, it's like a form of Suppress Mutant Powers. On another, it's neither permanent, nor based on range. And because this guy would have to hit his target to stop their powers, he should get a bit of a price break. Then again, I don't imagine this as a modifier that if he touches you, he can negate all your powers for X panels, but more like an action, and maybe it would work better if instead of taking away powers, it made them harder to use, similar to fear in a way.
I really like this idea, but I'm having considerable difficulty designing rules for it that I like. Any suggestions?
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Post by WildKnight on Dec 15, 2008 21:57:10 GMT -5
A couple of options that spring to mind without putting too much thought into it;
You mentioned Fear. Model it on Fear with the limitation that you have to physically strike the target (so you have to overcome defenses rather than just Intelligence). After that, its pretty much a straight shot... energy taken from the Action Box means they're not using their powers
If you're going for something that "sticks"... Make it a "Nerve Punch" type action that allows you to forego the normal damage and instead reduce one of the target's AN's. Result (i.e. "damage") stones would have to be split between reducing the AN and duration (1 stone/panel after the first).
No idea how I'd price that second one though. I'll be watching this thread because the idea seems really cool, and I'd like to see some good writeups/ideas on this kind of power.
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Post by malice on Dec 16, 2008 1:02:08 GMT -5
Interesting idea. There isn't a lot of precedent in MURPG for damaging anything OTHER than durability or red stones. Although damaging their red stones of energy may be a good option for this though; for +3 you can incorporate a stun option and give it 2x damage.
So the power would attack their energy reserve, like Fear and Drain Energy, but because neither of those is doing "damage" per se they can't choose tasty options like "2x damage". Hitting their energy reserve would make it much more "draining" to use their power. I also like characters that leave others feeling withered of strength, but that's just me...
As Wildknight suggests, Another option is to create an advantage "Attack ON enemy ability" rather than "against" so that the damage is taken from their action but must defeat their normal defense.
So let's use poor ol' Cyclops as an example cuz it's easy. Your guy has an AN of 6 in "Chi Block" and he lands a hit on Cyclops for the whole 6 (Cuz that's easy too) and Cyclop's Optic Blast drops to an AN of 3 instead of 9, and replenishes at 1 point of AN per panel. I'm feeling like pricing for this would around +5, and could drop as low as +2 or +3 once we've talked about it and refined it a little. Personally I'd rather the replenishing happened at a different rate or was somehow based on the attacker's use of the action.
....walked away from the post for awhile and forgot where I was going with it....
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Post by Kaimontfendo on Dec 17, 2008 4:22:57 GMT -5
Wow. With Malice and WildKnight helping with this, we should be finished in only a few days. Seriously, you guys are two of the best rulemakers here. (Pirate Spice is really good too, but he's not around here much anymore.) And while I was a tad surprised WildKnight actually showed up to help after all the time he and I have spent trying to kill each other's ideas, I suppose I can believe it's a Christmas miracle... Or WildKnight is just really cool like that.
At any rate, I suppose the "simple" way to do this is using "damage or stun at will" to deplete the target's energy until they can't use their powers. Although it fits the rules without making some home-brew thing, it doesn't really carry the feel I'm looking for, since instead of making them fight without their powers, it makes them unable to fight effectively at all.
On one hand, I like the idea of making powers harder to use, like Fear would do. On another hand, that means he couldn't take away modifiers, and while there aren't many modifiers he'd want to take away, there is an annoying one called Toughness. (Also, I suppose you could argue that this sort of Chi-blocking technique would have to beat energy defense, but I'd hate to think what that would mean for Energy Absorbers or the Energy Immune. Actually, could chi-blocking negate Physical Invulnerability? I mean, it's not really a damaging technique, but it is still Physical. Right? Gah! Thinking too much! I suppose the best way is "It's not physical or energy, it's just something he knows how to do.")
Another problem I'm having here is his energy pool. Spending 9 stones to block Cyclops' chi flow is fine except that it still means spending 9 stones. Maybe just blocking whole powers instead of dealing damage is a better way to go, even if it costs a lot of stones to build. (That's part of the problem. Either it costs a lot to build, or it costs a lot to use.) Of course, there are some other homebrews that can help with energy problems.
I'm also not sure if this should be an Option for Close Combat, or a separate action he can activate on a successful attack like Drain Energy. Of course, this isn't made any easier by the fact that there aren't many of either to compare to, and actions in general don't have duration based on stones spent. Perhaps the best way to handle it is to follow Psi-Weapon's "lasts until the end of combat," example.
I don't think an RPG has ever caused me problems this bad before. This is where the whole thing of "many paths to the same goal" really bites, especially when there are several paths, and they all look terrible.
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Post by Thuellai on Dec 17, 2008 4:39:58 GMT -5
Another idea for a restriction on this is that it can block only powers which are connected to natural processes of the body - so all mutants, most mutagenics, and any alien with a human nerve structure is affected, but Doctor Strange less so. Which reminds me, that could be another restriction to lower its cost bit by bit - -1 for "can only effect humans or very human-like aliens".
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Post by malice on Dec 17, 2008 4:57:09 GMT -5
Wow. With Malice and WildKnight helping with this, we should be finished in only a few days. Seriously, you guys are two of the best rulemakers here. (Pirate Spice is really good too, but he's not around here much anymore.) While I'm flattered, you forgot kaimontfendo from that list. I've found your additions to rules discussion often make the difference between a productive discussion and just another learning exercise. In order to make this an operational ability, you're going to have to narrow your focus. Otherwise you're going to get into questions of what is "chi-fueled" and what is not, and eventually someone is going to ask "why bother differentiating between chi and energy?". I recommend making "chi-block" [working title] work on the same things that Steal Superpower and Copy Action/Ability/Modifier work on. It's just simpler that way, and it keeps the idea working within the already-present system. Occasionally, I also wouldn't allow it to work on certain things. For example, I don't know how you can "Block" an invulnerability, especially when that invulnerability comes from something deep-rooted in the target (For example, if they're made of mist). ALso, you may want to make it attack actions, abilities, and modifiers with a modifier number (Again, for simplicity's sake). That way the math is easy. Finally, I would substitute certain damages for others that make more sense. How could "Chi-block" make Colossus's skin any less steel? If your answer is "it can't" then you need to explain why. If it's a martial technique, then I think Toughness should defend just fine against it because harder skin WILL protect you from a lot of hand-to-hand techniques. That's why both 2x damage works so well. I think a multiplied damage should be built-in to this "chi-block" just to make it cost effective, especially when you're having to overcome their defense anyway. I personally really enjoy making things into Advantages or Disadvantages every time it's applicable, just because it allows for greater customization of actions and modifiers within the framework of the system. I like giving players the option to edit an action themselves so that they can really build the character they want to play without feeling like they're copying an already-existing concept. However, "chi-block" is unique enough that I think it should be an action unto itself that can combine with Close Combat or attack by itself. The only problem with this is getting over the 2 action per panel limit, which you may not use in your games, but I like to make things "ready-to-use" for everyone. Maybe you could make it a modifier that's similar to Claws in how it works, but "chi-block" couldn't attack health stones or durability (which would be pretty much the same, and in fact better in many ways). If you do it this way I don't think 2x damage is necessary, since you'll already be getting more stones of attack from the mod. So, here's my effort then I get back to homework... Chi-BlockModifier Number + 3 levels Description: This is the ability of some practiced Masters to directly limit the chi flow of their opponents, crippling their bodies and limiting their superpowers. Add your modifier number only to your Close Combat attacks. You do not damage health stones, but instead your choice of the enemy's red stones of energy, abilities, actions, or modifier numbers. Deduct damage directly from from their maximum AN, MN, or Ability score. This ability cannot be used to attack durability or stones of health, and it cannot drop a target's AN, MN, or Ability score below 1. Characters affected by this attack recover their AN, MN, or Ability score at 1 point per panel when they are not being damaged by Chi-Block. So continually hitting an enemy's same AN, MN, or Ability score will prohibit them from regenerating them. Rules for Action Box -Combines with Close Combat for offense only -Damage comes from enemy's ANs, MNs, or Ability scores, which they can only begin regenerating at 1 point per panel when they are no longer taking damage from Chi Block (i.e. you stop attacking them with it) -Comes with stun option, but can only damage red stones of energy when stunning. Chi Block cannot stun an enemy for any amount of panels. That's just what I can imagine for it. I wanted to give something concrete before departing again, not trying to take your baby away. What sucks about modifiers is they can't be improved by lines, and if this is a "technique" then it makes perfect sense for it to improve. I know WK wouldn't be phased by this, but like I said I try to make rules anyone can use. Homework, ho!
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Post by Kaimontfendo on Dec 17, 2008 5:26:25 GMT -5
Another idea for a restriction on this is that it can block only powers which are connected to natural processes of the body - so all mutants, most mutagenics, and any alien with a human nerve structure is affected, but Doctor Strange less so. Which reminds me, that could be another restriction to lower its cost bit by bit - -1 for "can only effect humans or very human-like aliens". How well Pressure Points and Chi-Blocking techniques work on aliens should probably range from "Not very well" to "Not at All." And since you mentioned Doctor Strange, I must admit that although I hadn't thought about magic-users much, there should be ways to get him, too. Although I do not know if he has such limitations, anyone who requires speech or motions to cast a spell could be defeated by someone using knowledge of pressure points to paralyze the right muscles.(I apologize for the lack of knowledge on that subject, but it's rare enough I even read comics anymore, and ever rarer that I read ones involving magic-users.) While I'm flattered, you forgot kaimontfendo from that list. I've found your additions to rules discussion often make the difference between a productive discussion and just another learning exercise. I didn't forget; I was just trying to be modest. At any rate, now that you've given me a modifier to work with, I think I can start on a CAD. But I feel like it's under-priced.
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Post by Thuellai on Dec 17, 2008 5:34:09 GMT -5
Your point on that is simply answered - attack his abilities until he can't move. He's a strong magic user but he can't have more than 3 speed if that, so if you take that out, he can't move at all, so he can't cast. Doesn't mean you've hit his magic.
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Post by malice on Dec 17, 2008 5:58:25 GMT -5
At any rate, now that you've given me a modifier to work with, I think I can start on a CAD. But I feel like it's under-priced. So make it as expensive as Claws, or even worse, Claws with AP. My suggested modifier was never meant to be final. Actually +4 fits ok I think, since a person can still attach 2x damge for a reasonable price and +4 is also the price of Power Boost (As similar as it gets I think) I would still like to insert a means by which it can be improved within the RAW, but like I said, I was just making a suggestion Your point on that is simply answered - attack his abilities until he can't move. He's a strong magic user but he can't have more than 3 speed if that, so if you take that out, he can't move at all, so he can't cast. Doesn't mean you've hit his magic. Actually, come to think of it, I don't think Chi-block should be allowed to drop anything to zero without an additional option. I'll insert that now. Damnit malice! Get back to work on your final! You have 6 pages left and a need for sleep!
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Post by WildKnight on Dec 17, 2008 7:51:03 GMT -5
I think even at +4, its too cheap for what it does. Anything that allows you to basically pick any one ability and defeat the target based on that ability alone is very strong.
For instance, this character could defeat the Hulk very easily... target his Intelligence. Sure, you have to get past Hulk's 8 Toughness No AP... but just 9 stones would take Hulk out completely by reducing his Intelligence to zero.
Personally I think that, the way the system is constructed, Abilities should not be able to be reduced. I know its logical within the sense of what nerve punches and chi-blocking strikes do in the real world, but within the game rules, it can really be overbearing.
If the intent is to build a character that can "one hit wonder" anybody and everybody, I'd recommend Iron Will + Close Combat with the "Disables if any damage occurs" option. You'll achieve the same effect.
If you take out the aspect of targeting abilities and stick with just Actions and Modifiers, the +4 Cost is pretty appropriate.
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Post by malice on Dec 17, 2008 8:57:04 GMT -5
I think even at +4, its too cheap for what it does. Anything that allows you to basically pick any one ability and defeat the target based on that ability alone is very strong. For instance, this character could defeat the Hulk very easily... target his Intelligence. Sure, you have to get past Hulk's 8 Toughness No AP... but just 9 stones would take Hulk out completely by reducing his Intelligence to zero. I agree, which is why I edited in this modification: This ability cannot be used to attack durability or stones of health, and it cannot drop a target's AN, MN, or Ability score below 1. As for the rest of your concerns, I'm finding myself oddly neutral (which is how I feel when I need to think about it more), but I can't afford to devote the brain power to them right now.
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Post by WildKnight on Dec 17, 2008 9:25:35 GMT -5
Okay, well actually I withdraw my concern if you can't reduce an ability below 1. That removes the "cheap KO" aspect of it, and seems to work pretty well.
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Post by Kaimontfendo on Dec 21, 2008 1:52:28 GMT -5
Well, I think I'd prefer a version that could still drop Actions to zero, and maybe Modifiers as well. However, I have to agree that dropping Abilities to zero is terribly broken, and dropping actions could be right up there.
Although, the limitation "can only reduce the AN or MN of superpowers" would go a long way to prevent abuse, it's fair reasoning that someone who can negate superpowers would have skills to negate the effectiveness of human opponents as well. (-1 Cost Level if bought with Nerve Punch?) Besides, then you have to decide if Xavier's high Intelligence is based on a mutation or if he's just that smart, and there are probably several other similar examples I'm not thinking of right now.
I still haven't gotten around to building a CAD for this guy yet, but I probably should soon. I don't think I've ever built a serious martial artist before. Sure, I've thrown some numbers around to make Emi and her teacher, but considering Emi doesn't even have Reflexive Dodge... (For the record, she ran out of stones after buying Ninja 8 and Targeting 5.) Still, this shouldn't be too hard, I've built a character with a 12-stone, 2x damage attack who only cost 30 stones or so.
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Post by malice on Dec 21, 2008 18:02:09 GMT -5
When working with no precedent, I err on the side of caution.
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