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Post by soban on Feb 4, 2009 14:13:47 GMT -5
First post
Ok with that out of the way. How do you think energy should be handled in 2.0?
Energy should be based on two stats, energy pool and energy regeneration. Energy pool costs say 5 blue stones per point and each point gives 5 energy into the pool. Regeneration means that your put a stone into the pool each panel.
Also Energy should be designed so that the pool is empty at the end of 10-15 panels for a normal character.
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 4, 2009 14:27:55 GMT -5
I want to talk in generalities before I get into specific solutions. Here's my platform:
Things the new energy system should largely prevent or discourage: - getting fatigued (running out of energy) after only a few panels of effective fighting (because its no fun to be exhausted all the time) - characters that never really need to exceed their energy regeneration/recovery/whateveryouwanttocallit (because its boring) - solving energy problems primarily with modifiers (because too many modifiers means minimal decision making on the player's part, and every combat round looks the same, which = boring) - dependency on "efficient"-style advantages to solve the problem of high AN characters going through red stones like Michael Moore at an all-you-can-eat buffet.
My suggestions as usual: - higher energy pool/reserve/whatever than MURPG 1.0 - emphasis on lower regen/recovery than what we're used to - finding a way to minimize the death spiral effect without completely negating it - compensation for high-power characters, since they use more energy (I prefer higher energy recovery and larger reserves; others prefer modifiers) - - caveat: higher energy recover/reserves necessitates separating Durability and Energy
~TWF
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Post by soban on Feb 4, 2009 14:35:39 GMT -5
What about requiring that energy stats must be lower then your highest action number? (not counting efficient type things)
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 4, 2009 14:40:59 GMT -5
Hm. I like to think that guidelines are best. In the same way a GM likely wouldn't accept any of the other broken character builds, I hope that GMs will turn away characters that abuse the energy system. I keep thinking there should be a way for GMs to, at the start of a game, give the players an idea of what's appropriate. I dunno. It's hard to balance the rules when they aren't set in stone yet.
~TWF
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Post by vjcsmoke on Feb 4, 2009 15:06:53 GMT -5
I'll just copy and paste what I posted in the MURPG 2.0 thread.
1. Energy Reform. I have to credit getting this idea from one of the games I'm thinking of joining on the board. The idea is simple. Separate energy regeneration from the DUR ability entirely. This way there is not this one stat that is all important in every build (int energy rule notwithstanding).
The other thing that I want to do is to separate increased energy regeneration from the healing factors. Because not all heroes want to have a healing factor, but to get an adequate energy regen, just about everyone is forced to take it. I don't like that as it kind of forces heroes to be cookie cutters. Everybody seems to take healing factor by default.
Ok, so how does this work practically?
A) The cost of DUR is now reduced to 1x. DUR only determines your health. B) You buy your energy generation separately. This is considered a modifier. It costs the same to purchase as a normal ability. C) You buy your energy reserve separately. This is considered a modifier. It costs the same to purcase as a normal ability. Each point of modifier adds 3 points of energy to your energy pool. D) Reduce the price of all healing factors by 2 CL. E) 1.5x energy regen costs +1 CL to your energy generation modifier. F) 2x energy regen costs +2 CL to your energy generation modifier.
CAD Example
Cyclops Int 4, 2W Str 2, 2R Agi 3, 1W Spd 2, 2R Dur 3, 1W
Energy Reserve +5, 3W Energy Regen +6, 6W -1.5x energy generation +1
H 3/3 E 15/15 R 9R per panel
Cyclops now has the energy to use his Optic Blast just as you see it in the comics. But he is not inordinately healthy which was previously the only way to do it without using the intelligence rule.
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Post by Dionon on Feb 4, 2009 15:19:04 GMT -5
I personally like VJC's idea, which I know I said before too lol...
But there IS a problem.... One of the things we're trying to avoid is Cyclops being able to use his Optic blast at full power ALL the time.... Which with your build he could...
We need to find a happy medium between what we have now, and what VJC is proposing...
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 4, 2009 15:23:49 GMT -5
I love everything except E) and F). There will mathematically come a point where you'd be stupid not to buy x1.5 or x2 energy regeneration. I'd leave those options out.
What I like about cheap Dur is that characters often have too few health stones. This makes them a little more affordable.
I'm not sure about costs (too early to really hammer them out) but I like A through D.
~TWF
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 4, 2009 15:28:04 GMT -5
Uh... why reduce the costs of Healing Factors, exactly?
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 4, 2009 15:36:40 GMT -5
To account for the loss of 1.5x energy. I can't say I agree with -2 CL yet, but some sort of compensation seems like a good idea.
~TWF
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 4, 2009 15:38:26 GMT -5
Why, does Healing Factor no longer improve energy regeneration?
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 4, 2009 15:44:06 GMT -5
In theory, because a healing factor doesn't always correspond to higher energy. It does in a lot of cases, especially where it's referred to as a "healing factor" even in the comics, but not everything we represent with a healing factor in MURPG should automatically come with more juice.
~TWF
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Post by Dionon on Feb 4, 2009 15:44:39 GMT -5
I think because vjc connected their parts directly TO energy regeneration. I don't exactly agree with it, but...
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 4, 2009 15:45:59 GMT -5
Ah, well then...
Personally if thats the case, I'd prefer a straight cost not associated with Durability. The reason (IMO) that the cost of a Healing Factor is inherently tied to Dur is because of energy regeneration, not because having a higher Durability somehow makes recovering Health faster superior.
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 4, 2009 15:48:50 GMT -5
I pretty much agree, although I'm still open to ideas, such as a scaled cost.
Arguably a healing factor is more useful to a character with a moderate number of white stones. Someone with 5 is more likely to survive (not be knocked out) by an injury, whereas someone with 2 white is often going to be knocked out before they can heal. As you know, healing factor does nothing to shorten your KO time (though perhaps it should).
But anyway, even if that confers an advantage, I'd say that's due to buying durability, and isn't inherently a property the healing factor. So yes, I support a fixed cost.
A fixed cost also eliminates the temptation to buy tasty, tasty cheap Instant Healing Factor.
~TWF
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Post by malice on Feb 4, 2009 16:14:56 GMT -5
I didn't read much the original MURPG 2.0 thread because it was massive and I didn't feel like playing catch-up. So please forgive me if this has been suggested before.
Here's an outline of my suggestions to fix energy regeneration:
1a. Boost normal energy regeneration rates one notch (Normal (1.5xDur instead of 1x Round down odds)
b. Do the same for Healing factors except for low-end ones: 2x Healing Rate (1.5xDur Round up odds) Healing Factor (2x Dur)-> Instant Healing Factor (3x Dur) OR Eliminate enhanced energy regeneration on Healing Factors
c. And/Or make Energy 4x Health instead of 3x. This raises Energy regen rate and max reserve (Both of which could use it). EDIT: I foolishly forgot to include regen rate adjustments for energy = 4x durability. Here they are: Normal = 2x durability regenerates into reserve Improved (A la Healing factors of any kind) = 3x durability Instant = Full regeneration Again these numbers assume you want healing factors to have energy regeneration superior to people without healing factors.
2. Need more free stones.
a. For abilities and actions get (AN/3 round up) free stones of effect. This makes higher ANs able to execute actions at low levels "Effortlessly". It's the same math as the "Efficient" advantage only you get the free stones first if the action isn't strenuous. If it is strenuous, you pay 2 and get 1 like normal Efficient
b.When using an ability bonus on an action get (Ability Max/2 round up) free stones with investment of at least 1 stone from reserve.
c. Classify some actions as "Strenuous", these actions don't gain the (AN/3 round up) free stone without the stones of effort. Essentially "Strenuous" actions are just "Efficient" and have no "Effortless"
d. ...unless they take "mastery" advantage which is only available at AN 8 or higher. Upon taking this advantage they behave normally, as if they aren't "Strenuous" and can be done effortlessly 3. Example to tie it all together.
Now here's the fat and ugly the outline hints at:
For energy regeneration the best fix is in several places:
1st: I suggest sticking to the current amounts of energy vs. health but granting the "average" character (who possesses no modifier or action to enhance their energy regeneration, such as healing factors) the current enhanced energy regenation rate. So a normal person in 2.0 would regenerate energy as fast as a person with a healing factor does in 1.0.
What happens to healing factors?
You can do one of two things imo: Bump their regeneration up another notch (So 2.0 versions of 2x Healing rate, Healing Factor, Accelerated Healing Factor, and Enhanced Healing Factor would all regenerate 2 red for every white like the 1.0 Instant Healing Factor)
OR
Grant Healing Factors no additional energy regeneration. After all, it was never clear why they had them to begin with, and one guaranteed way to balance things is to bestow them upon everyone equally. Such would be the case with energy regeneration.
But doesn't that all mean people will be stuck rounding those wonky numbers like they do now if they have an odd-numbered amount of health and a healing factor?
Yes, which would teach them to do it. It would also create a better system than "ALWAYS round [up/down, usually down]" You're talking about mostly seasoned MURPG players playing this anyhow.
Or, if you don't like the idea of rounding ALL the time (I don't blame you, cuz I don't like it) you could make your energy 4x your health instead of 3 (Never knew why they picked that number anyway. This would both increase you maximum and your regen rate.
2. More free stones from more places!
Certain lowest-effort actions are already free. Walking requires no investment of energy. I think the level of "Effortless" should go up with AN. So a person with a flight of 10 can probably hover effortlessly, and can probably even go at flight speeds of 2 or 3 without trying.
The exact fraction for how many points of AN: what level of the action is "effortless" for you is up to each GM. I think dividing by 3 and rounding up works fine. It gives mid levels some cool power while making 10 similar yet clearly superior to 9. So a person with a flight of 9 could fly at speed 3 without investing stones while a person with a flight of 10 could at speed 4 free.
Classify certain actions as "Strenuous" by nature, so that they can't use this free stones rule to break the game. Actions I would classify as "Strenuous" include any Combat action. If you prefer that these "Strenuous" actions still get free stones, then make it so you can only benefit from free stones based on the amount you invest.
So a person with Close Combat of 10 would only get 4 free stones if they attacked for 10 (So an investment of 6 stones, and also this makes "Strenuous" actions "Efficient", I just came at it from a different direction). High Action numbers gain advantage this way. They can also do non-strenuous actions effortlessly at lower levels.
Make part or all of ability bonuses free stones. I think making half the stones you get from your abilities free, starting with the first stone (aka rounding up the amount of free stones 5 strength can generate), is a good place to start. So a hero with 5 Close Combat with Str Bonus of 5 could be putting out 4 stone attacks for 1 stone. He gets 3 free stones from his strength and can invest more from his reserve if he wants, but must always invest at least 1 to fight.
This almost balances Close Combat against Ranged. High Ability/Low AN characters are still a little balanced against High AN characters because High AN characters get free stones for high Action numbers.
Abilities would work on the "Divide by 3 and round up" rule to get free stones until they were used in conjunction/combined/used as a bonus with actions, when they become "half free round up".
If High ANs still don't feel balanced against High ability scores, you could introduce an advantage (Call it "mastery" as a working title) that was only available at an AN of 8 or higher where you needn't put forth stones of effort on "Strenuous" actions in order to get your "effortless" stones. So a Close Combat of 8 with the "Mastery" advantage could get 3 free stones without investing any, and if combined with an ability score of 3 it would be 5 free stones put into Close Combat whenever the character chose. This "Mastery" advantage would reflect a person's consistency in their High AN. Another character might have a Higher AN, but the person with "Mastery" is just more experienced and conistently above average.
3. Chica Fantastica has 6 strength, 6 close combat (Str Bonus), and a flight of 7 (unaided) She can: -Fly at speed 3 without investing any stones in flight (7/3 = 2.3-, round it up and you get 3) -Make a Close Combat attack of 12 stones by only paying 7 stones (4 stones paid into Action grants 2 free for high AN, 3 paid into strength grants 3 free. 4+2+3+3=12) -Combine the two actions and pay 11 stones for an 18 stone flying punch. (Previous CC Breakdown + 7 stones of Flight, 3 of whic are free)
Punchiz has an Strength of 9, a Close Combat of 8 (Strength bonus and Mastery advantage) He can: -Use his strength to lift and jump at 3 stones of effect for free -Make a Close Combat attack of 12 by only paying 4 stones (Mastery advantage allows for "Effortless" Close Combat, so he gets 3 free stones from his AN of 8 without investing any from his reserve + 5 from his 9 Strength + 4 from his reserve) -Make a running 18 stone body check attack for 10 stones by combining his speed of 1 with his Close Combat (Str included)
The character with the higher ability scores and AN pays less for just as much effect, but probably couldn't afford flight after he bought 8 Str and 8 Close combat with a Mastery advantage.
Anyway, that's my first suggestion. If you guys are having trouble understanding or visualizing it I could probably create a CAD with these rules and list some of its capabilities.
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