Post by takewithfood on Feb 4, 2009 18:16:21 GMT -5
Okay, I'm going to try to go through this piece by piece.. Lots of ideas in here, so it might take a while!
1a. Boost normal energy regeneration rates one notch (Normal (1.5xDur instead of 1x Round down odds)
I'm actually in support of relatively low energy regeneration rates. I think the "sweet spot" in MURPG is when you're forced to spend more stones than your recovery rate, because that's when you have to make the tough decisions. For me, at least, tough decisions are a big part of the fun of a diceless system.
Also, if possible, I'd like to do away with wonky x1.5 systems. It sucks when you're multiplying an odd number by 1.5 and you have to work out some way of dealing with a remainder. Some GMs just round down (which feels unfair) and some GMs alternate rounding up and rounding down (which makes it awkward to keep track of what you should be recovering each panel).
I think that if we allow players to choose energy recovery independently of Durability, they should be able to choose a recovery value that fits their character's needs without resorting to multiples.
I'm in favor of eliminating enhanced energy recovery on Healing Factors. It's simple and still effective to just buy the right amount of Durability. If you feel having a Healing Factor helps justify a higher recovery rate, then buy higher recovery. Sounds like it'll work, anyway.
Oy, full recovery of energy is a really bad idea. It essentially turns your entire character into a giant modifier.
I strongly, strongly feel that the game needs fewer free stones. I think that powerful characters who have very high Attributes and Action Numbers should simply have more energy: buy larger recovery rates and larger reserves.
It isn't a perfect system, but I think its better than trying to keep track of a lot of free stones, especially since modifiers take a lot of the decision making process (and the inherent fun) out of the game.
Yikes, I just disagree with most of this. I've already addressed why, so I won't repeat myself.
Dio and WK have been championing a similar attitude, only their system is a little more simplified and elegant, I think. I still disagree with it to some extent, but I'm really interested in playtesting a bunch of methods such as what you've proposed and what they've proposed.
For the moment, I'm cautious at best, but still curious.
Again, I'm wary of free stones for everything. The point of a diceless game is allocation of resources, not free resources. This all sounds very complicated, too, and I like to err on the side of KISS.
I think its great that all these idea have been contributed to the discussion, though. I may disagree, but I'm just one voice. Interested as always to hear what others think.
~TWF
1a. Boost normal energy regeneration rates one notch (Normal (1.5xDur instead of 1x Round down odds)
I'm actually in support of relatively low energy regeneration rates. I think the "sweet spot" in MURPG is when you're forced to spend more stones than your recovery rate, because that's when you have to make the tough decisions. For me, at least, tough decisions are a big part of the fun of a diceless system.
Also, if possible, I'd like to do away with wonky x1.5 systems. It sucks when you're multiplying an odd number by 1.5 and you have to work out some way of dealing with a remainder. Some GMs just round down (which feels unfair) and some GMs alternate rounding up and rounding down (which makes it awkward to keep track of what you should be recovering each panel).
I think that if we allow players to choose energy recovery independently of Durability, they should be able to choose a recovery value that fits their character's needs without resorting to multiples.
b. Do the same for Healing factors except for low-end ones: 2x Healing Rate (1.5xDur Round up odds) Healing Factor (2x Dur)-> Instant Healing Factor (3x Dur)
OR
Eliminate enhanced energy regeneration on Healing Factors
OR
Eliminate enhanced energy regeneration on Healing Factors
I'm in favor of eliminating enhanced energy recovery on Healing Factors. It's simple and still effective to just buy the right amount of Durability. If you feel having a Healing Factor helps justify a higher recovery rate, then buy higher recovery. Sounds like it'll work, anyway.
c. And/Or make Energy 4x Health instead of 3x. This raises Energy regen rate and max reserve (Both of which could use it). EDIT: I foolishly forgot to include regen rate adjustments for energy = 4x durability. Here they are:
Normal = 2x durability regenerates into reserve
Improved (A la Healing factors of any kind) = 3x durability
Instant = Full regeneration
Again these numbers assume you want healing factors to have energy regeneration superior to people without healing factors.
Normal = 2x durability regenerates into reserve
Improved (A la Healing factors of any kind) = 3x durability
Instant = Full regeneration
Again these numbers assume you want healing factors to have energy regeneration superior to people without healing factors.
Oy, full recovery of energy is a really bad idea. It essentially turns your entire character into a giant modifier.
2. Need more free stones.
a. For abilities and actions get (AN/3 round up) free stones of effect. This makes higher ANs able to execute actions at low levels "Effortlessly". It's the same math as the "Efficient" advantage only you get the free stones first if the action isn't strenuous. If it is strenuous, you pay 2 and get 1 like normal Efficient
b.When using an ability bonus on an action get (Ability Max/2 round up) free stones with investment of at least 1 stone from reserve.
c. Classify some actions as "Strenuous", these actions don't gain the (AN/3 round up) free stone without the stones of effort. Essentially "Strenuous" actions are just "Efficient" and have no "Effortless"
d. ...unless they take "mastery" advantage which is only available at AN 8 or higher. Upon taking this advantage they behave normally, as if they aren't "Strenuous" and can be done effortlessly
a. For abilities and actions get (AN/3 round up) free stones of effect. This makes higher ANs able to execute actions at low levels "Effortlessly". It's the same math as the "Efficient" advantage only you get the free stones first if the action isn't strenuous. If it is strenuous, you pay 2 and get 1 like normal Efficient
b.When using an ability bonus on an action get (Ability Max/2 round up) free stones with investment of at least 1 stone from reserve.
c. Classify some actions as "Strenuous", these actions don't gain the (AN/3 round up) free stone without the stones of effort. Essentially "Strenuous" actions are just "Efficient" and have no "Effortless"
d. ...unless they take "mastery" advantage which is only available at AN 8 or higher. Upon taking this advantage they behave normally, as if they aren't "Strenuous" and can be done effortlessly
I strongly, strongly feel that the game needs fewer free stones. I think that powerful characters who have very high Attributes and Action Numbers should simply have more energy: buy larger recovery rates and larger reserves.
It isn't a perfect system, but I think its better than trying to keep track of a lot of free stones, especially since modifiers take a lot of the decision making process (and the inherent fun) out of the game.
3. Example to tie it all together.
Now here's the fat and ugly the outline hints at:
For energy regeneration the best fix is in several places:
1st: I suggest sticking to the current amounts of energy vs. health but granting the "average" character (who possesses no modifier or action to enhance their energy regeneration, such as healing factors) the current enhanced energy regenation rate. So a normal person in 2.0 would regenerate energy as fast as a person with a healing factor does in 1.0.
What happens to healing factors?
You can do one of two things imo: Bump their regeneration up another notch (So 2.0 versions of 2x Healing rate, Healing Factor, Accelerated Healing Factor, and Enhanced Healing Factor would all regenerate 2 red for every white like the 1.0 Instant Healing Factor)
OR
Grant Healing Factors no additional energy regeneration. After all, it was never clear why they had them to begin with, and one guaranteed way to balance things is to bestow them upon everyone equally. Such would be the case with energy regeneration.
But doesn't that all mean people will be stuck rounding those wonky numbers like they do now if they have an odd-numbered amount of health and a healing factor?
Yes, which would teach them to do it. It would also create a better system than "ALWAYS round [up/down, usually down]" You're talking about mostly seasoned MURPG players playing this anyhow.
Or, if you don't like the idea of rounding ALL the time (I don't blame you, cuz I don't like it) you could make your energy 4x your health instead of 3 (Never knew why they picked that number anyway. This would both increase you maximum and your regen rate.
Now here's the fat and ugly the outline hints at:
For energy regeneration the best fix is in several places:
1st: I suggest sticking to the current amounts of energy vs. health but granting the "average" character (who possesses no modifier or action to enhance their energy regeneration, such as healing factors) the current enhanced energy regenation rate. So a normal person in 2.0 would regenerate energy as fast as a person with a healing factor does in 1.0.
What happens to healing factors?
You can do one of two things imo: Bump their regeneration up another notch (So 2.0 versions of 2x Healing rate, Healing Factor, Accelerated Healing Factor, and Enhanced Healing Factor would all regenerate 2 red for every white like the 1.0 Instant Healing Factor)
OR
Grant Healing Factors no additional energy regeneration. After all, it was never clear why they had them to begin with, and one guaranteed way to balance things is to bestow them upon everyone equally. Such would be the case with energy regeneration.
But doesn't that all mean people will be stuck rounding those wonky numbers like they do now if they have an odd-numbered amount of health and a healing factor?
Yes, which would teach them to do it. It would also create a better system than "ALWAYS round [up/down, usually down]" You're talking about mostly seasoned MURPG players playing this anyhow.
Or, if you don't like the idea of rounding ALL the time (I don't blame you, cuz I don't like it) you could make your energy 4x your health instead of 3 (Never knew why they picked that number anyway. This would both increase you maximum and your regen rate.
Yikes, I just disagree with most of this. I've already addressed why, so I won't repeat myself.
2. More free stones from more places!
Certain lowest-effort actions are already free. Walking requires no investment of energy. I think the level of "Effortless" should go up with AN. So a person with a flight of 10 can probably hover effortlessly, and can probably even go at flight speeds of 2 or 3 without trying.
The exact fraction for how many points of AN: what level of the action is "effortless" for you is up to each GM. I think dividing by 3 and rounding up works fine. It gives mid levels some cool power while making 10 similar yet clearly superior to 9. So a person with a flight of 9 could fly at speed 3 without investing stones while a person with a flight of 10 could at speed 4 free.
Classify certain actions as "Strenuous" by nature, so that they can't use this free stones rule to break the game. Actions I would classify as "Strenuous" include any Combat action. If you prefer that these "Strenuous" actions still get free stones, then make it so you can only benefit from free stones based on the amount you invest.
So a person with Close Combat of 10 would only get 4 free stones if they attacked for 10 (So an investment of 6 stones, and also this makes "Strenuous" actions "Efficient", I just came at it from a different direction). High Action numbers gain advantage this way. They can also do non-strenuous actions effortlessly at lower levels.
Certain lowest-effort actions are already free. Walking requires no investment of energy. I think the level of "Effortless" should go up with AN. So a person with a flight of 10 can probably hover effortlessly, and can probably even go at flight speeds of 2 or 3 without trying.
The exact fraction for how many points of AN: what level of the action is "effortless" for you is up to each GM. I think dividing by 3 and rounding up works fine. It gives mid levels some cool power while making 10 similar yet clearly superior to 9. So a person with a flight of 9 could fly at speed 3 without investing stones while a person with a flight of 10 could at speed 4 free.
Classify certain actions as "Strenuous" by nature, so that they can't use this free stones rule to break the game. Actions I would classify as "Strenuous" include any Combat action. If you prefer that these "Strenuous" actions still get free stones, then make it so you can only benefit from free stones based on the amount you invest.
So a person with Close Combat of 10 would only get 4 free stones if they attacked for 10 (So an investment of 6 stones, and also this makes "Strenuous" actions "Efficient", I just came at it from a different direction). High Action numbers gain advantage this way. They can also do non-strenuous actions effortlessly at lower levels.
Dio and WK have been championing a similar attitude, only their system is a little more simplified and elegant, I think. I still disagree with it to some extent, but I'm really interested in playtesting a bunch of methods such as what you've proposed and what they've proposed.
For the moment, I'm cautious at best, but still curious.
Make part or all of ability bonuses free stones. I think making half the stones you get from your abilities free, starting with the first stone (aka rounding up the amount of free stones 5 strength can generate), is a good place to start. So a hero with 5 Close Combat with Str Bonus of 5 could be putting out 4 stone attacks for 1 stone. He gets 3 free stones from his strength and can invest more from his reserve if he wants, but must always invest at least 1 to fight.
This almost balances Close Combat against Ranged. High Ability/Low AN characters are still a little balanced against High AN characters because High AN characters get free stones for high Action numbers.
Abilities would work on the "Divide by 3 and round up" rule to get free stones until they were used in conjunction/combined/used as a bonus with actions, when they become "half free round up".
If High ANs still don't feel balanced against High ability scores, you could introduce an advantage (Call it "mastery" as a working title) that was only available at an AN of 8 or higher where you needn't put forth stones of effort on "Strenuous" actions in order to get your "effortless" stones. So a Close Combat of 8 with the "Mastery" advantage could get 3 free stones without investing any, and if combined with an ability score of 3 it would be 5 free stones put into Close Combat whenever the character chose. This "Mastery" advantage would reflect a person's consistency in their High AN. Another character might have a Higher AN, but the person with "Mastery" is just more experienced and conistently above average.
3. Chica Fantastica has 6 strength, 6 close combat (Str Bonus), and a flight of 7 (unaided)
She can:
-Fly at speed 3 without investing any stones in flight (7/3 = 2.3-, round it up and you get 3)
-Make a Close Combat attack of 12 stones by only paying 7 stones (4 stones paid into Action grants 2 free for high AN, 3 paid into strength grants 3 free. 4+2+3+3=12)
-Combine the two actions and pay 11 stones for an 18 stone flying punch. (Previous CC Breakdown + 7 stones of Flight, 3 of whic are free)
Punchiz has an Strength of 9, a Close Combat of 8 (Strength bonus and Mastery advantage)
He can:
-Use his strength to lift and jump at 3 stones of effect for free
-Make a Close Combat attack of 12 by only paying 4 stones (Mastery advantage allows for "Effortless" Close Combat, so he gets 3 free stones from his AN of 8 without investing any from his reserve + 5 from his 9 Strength + 4 from his reserve)
-Make a running 18 stone body check attack for 10 stones by combining his speed of 1 with his Close Combat (Str included)
The character with the higher ability scores and AN pays less for just as much effect, but probably couldn't afford flight after he bought 8 Str and 8 Close combat with a Mastery advantage.
Anyway, that's my first suggestion. If you guys are having trouble understanding or visualizing it I could probably create a CAD with these rules and list some of its capabilities.
This almost balances Close Combat against Ranged. High Ability/Low AN characters are still a little balanced against High AN characters because High AN characters get free stones for high Action numbers.
Abilities would work on the "Divide by 3 and round up" rule to get free stones until they were used in conjunction/combined/used as a bonus with actions, when they become "half free round up".
If High ANs still don't feel balanced against High ability scores, you could introduce an advantage (Call it "mastery" as a working title) that was only available at an AN of 8 or higher where you needn't put forth stones of effort on "Strenuous" actions in order to get your "effortless" stones. So a Close Combat of 8 with the "Mastery" advantage could get 3 free stones without investing any, and if combined with an ability score of 3 it would be 5 free stones put into Close Combat whenever the character chose. This "Mastery" advantage would reflect a person's consistency in their High AN. Another character might have a Higher AN, but the person with "Mastery" is just more experienced and conistently above average.
3. Chica Fantastica has 6 strength, 6 close combat (Str Bonus), and a flight of 7 (unaided)
She can:
-Fly at speed 3 without investing any stones in flight (7/3 = 2.3-, round it up and you get 3)
-Make a Close Combat attack of 12 stones by only paying 7 stones (4 stones paid into Action grants 2 free for high AN, 3 paid into strength grants 3 free. 4+2+3+3=12)
-Combine the two actions and pay 11 stones for an 18 stone flying punch. (Previous CC Breakdown + 7 stones of Flight, 3 of whic are free)
Punchiz has an Strength of 9, a Close Combat of 8 (Strength bonus and Mastery advantage)
He can:
-Use his strength to lift and jump at 3 stones of effect for free
-Make a Close Combat attack of 12 by only paying 4 stones (Mastery advantage allows for "Effortless" Close Combat, so he gets 3 free stones from his AN of 8 without investing any from his reserve + 5 from his 9 Strength + 4 from his reserve)
-Make a running 18 stone body check attack for 10 stones by combining his speed of 1 with his Close Combat (Str included)
The character with the higher ability scores and AN pays less for just as much effect, but probably couldn't afford flight after he bought 8 Str and 8 Close combat with a Mastery advantage.
Anyway, that's my first suggestion. If you guys are having trouble understanding or visualizing it I could probably create a CAD with these rules and list some of its capabilities.
Again, I'm wary of free stones for everything. The point of a diceless game is allocation of resources, not free resources. This all sounds very complicated, too, and I like to err on the side of KISS.
I think its great that all these idea have been contributed to the discussion, though. I may disagree, but I'm just one voice. Interested as always to hear what others think.
~TWF