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Post by WildKnight on Feb 6, 2009 12:02:57 GMT -5
Where did I say anyone had said that in this thread?
This thread is about Energy Regeneration, which IMO is the problem with Cap's CAD (and, really, anybody else who needs to do more than just throw a punch in a given panel).
In order to make my point, Captain America was a very handy example. In order to suggest WHY Captain America was a good example, I had to contrast my view with previously stated views on his CAD, because a point that isn't refuted is a point accepted.
If you prefer not to talk about Cap, another great example (for my money) is Spider-Man. In the comics, we see this guy fighting while flipping or swinging all over the place... but his CAD doesn't give him nearly enough energy and energy regeneration to do any of that.
What I'm about to say IS actually tangential, but.... wouldn't giving Captain America Leadership as a Modifier go against your generally stated opinion of having fewer Modifiers/Free Stones?
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 6, 2009 12:27:25 GMT -5
Sorry, WK, but it seemed totally unnecessary for you to bring up how badly Cap's CAD was written. Yes, he has energy problems - so does damn near EVERY CAD in every published book I've ever seen. If you're not refuting something that's been said in this thread, you're just stating the painfully, painfully obvious. While we're at it, water is wet. ^__^
Yes, Spider-Man is another character with energy problems. I agree that he's a good example because everybody is familiar with him and, perhaps equally importantly, he's been portrayed consistently (comparatively) in terms of what he can do. Part of that CAD's problem is the lack of defensive modifiers. I think he deserves higher Ref. Dodge and some Toughness. If he relies heavily on his web shooters, he can get by okay, but in an actual fight he's done in a couple panels.
They all need help. Frankly I'd never really use a CAD out of the book. They suck. They weren't playtested. (If they playtested any of them it was probably just Wolverine; he's still weak but not nearly as much as others.)
~TWF
(And about Cap's Leadership as a Modifier: Yes, it goes against my general opinion that modifiers suck a little fun out of the game, but in this case I think it's worth it. It represents the character and frankly even with free stones, there are important decisions to be made about where those Leadership stones should go. Leadership is one of my fav actions primarily that reason.
I'm not unyieldingly opposed to all modifiers, I'm just wary of a trend towards turning everything into a modifier without considering what's lost in the process.)
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 6, 2009 12:32:28 GMT -5
I get what you're saying (and I think we all know I agree about the book CADs)...
Let me try this again, without citing any specific examples; I feel like there is a problem with the notion of "bigger energy pools, less regeneration" as a generalization because some characters NEED greater regeneration in order to keep doing what they do.
We all seem to acknowledge that ANY system we come up with will be subject to abuse, but I'm concerned with the possibility that we would overcompensate by making some types of characters really difficult to play successfully.
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 6, 2009 12:55:03 GMT -5
Yeah, I can agree with that. As I hope you took away from my suggestion that Cap and Spidey (for example) need higher Recovery than they're granted in the books, I want characters to be designed so that they're in that "sweet spot" I keep talking about. Finding that sweet spot is mostly up to the player, with guidance from the GM.
If characters need greater regeneration in order to not totally suck, then they should buy more. I just don't want every character to operate at full blast without ever tiring "because they can".
This is why I tried to encourage people to think in terms of energy and how it determines what's a threat. Take a character like Spidey. Take whatever energy recovery you set for him, and put that into some standard combat actions. Now envision what he can beat up with that and that alone. That kind of enemy is a piece of cake to him, whatever it is. If it turns out that beating up Silver Surfer is a piece of cake, you've done something wrong. If Aunt May isn't a piece of cake, you've done something wrong. If a band of athletic but basically human burglars with guns and crowbars are a piece of cake - now you're getting closer.
That thought process should be a major contributing factor to deciding how much energy is just right.
If you want to talk about "big boss" fights, like against Venom, think about how much energy Spidey has to spend in excess of his recovery rate in order to stay competitive with Venom. Multiply that by how many how many panels you think he should be able to keep up that pace. That should give you a very, very rough but useful guideline for how large his energy reserve should be.
Are these hard rules? Absolutely not. But I think they're useful tools for finding that sweet spot where the game is realistically winnable, but still a challenge.
What types of characters do you think will be hard to play successfully, and why? I'm curious if you have specific examples in mind.
~TWF
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 6, 2009 13:03:35 GMT -5
Sorry, I had tried to explain that using my previous examples; people like Spidey and Cap who fight very well, but who also do other things during a fight (Spidey's movement and/or use of his mouth <Social Skills> to distract and irritate opponents, Cap's support-through-Leadership)
I'm not suggesting that there is currently anything wrong with what's been stated (and now that I look back and read more thoroughly, I see that you actually singled out Captain America's weak energy regeneration as an issue). I just want to make sure that things don't go too far in one direction while trying to avoid going the other.
Personally, I think a lot of this system, no matter what we do, is going to have to boil down to GM's being willing to say no.
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Post by Neros on Feb 6, 2009 13:12:23 GMT -5
Those are some really good "guide lines" TwF and i understand what you mean about a characters sweet spot.. If Energy regeneration and energy reserve is made seperate from the other stats, I think there should be added a Spiderman Example much like the one you gave, to the character creation section, explaining that even though you can get Regeneration 10, you should think about what would be a "piece of cake" for the character..
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 6, 2009 13:13:47 GMT -5
I would be sorely tempted toy give Spidey "combines with close/ranged combat" as a Social Skills advantage, ha ha.
And yeah, I share your concern. I think we're actually on the same page, even if we got there from different directions.
Thoughts on the cost of buying energy recovery? X1 cost or x2 cost? x2 cost would put it more in line with the original system - I just can't decide if that's a good thing. ^__^
~TWF
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 6, 2009 13:21:22 GMT -5
I think if we're dividing Durability into 3 sections (Health, Energy Pool, and Energy Regeneration), which is an idea I really like, each element should cost X1. Yes, its open to abuse, allowing a character to have ridiculous Energy Regen... but again, I think no matter what we do its going to come back to GMs being willing to impose whatever limits are right for their game.
Unlike other systems I've run, most of the power gamers I've run into in MURPG are willing to compromise anyway (possibly because the system is so flexible itself.)
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Post by Neros on Feb 6, 2009 13:27:38 GMT -5
.... dam... You actually have a point there TwF..... They should totally make him able to combine his social skills with close combat... I mean, how many times havent one of his jokes saved his spiderbehind during a fight??....................
Hm... Yea.. But anyway, even though it was 2x cost, it would proberbly still be abused.. But Durability was originally 3x cost (health, energy and regen), so it makes sense to split it up that way... And as pointed out, its up to the GM to say no... Just like in all other games.....
But i really like the Spiderman example.. It would be a great guide to deciding where a characters sweet spot is..
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 6, 2009 13:30:27 GMT -5
I personally would like to build Spidey with Social Skills as a Modifier LOL
That way he could shift the stones to defense (which, IMO, is what he's doing whenever he runs his mouth to distract his opponents) or use them to trick opponents, and still keep up the fight. I don't think I've ever seen Spidey too tired to be a smarta$$
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 6, 2009 13:52:36 GMT -5
Ha ha, yes, as a modifier is even better! I agree. ^__^ That would be hilarious. As a caveat it shouldn't apply if the player can't think of something witty (or cheesy - come on, at least a pun or an insult!) to say.
~TWF
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Post by Dionon on Feb 6, 2009 16:02:01 GMT -5
Dio, that is a really complicated system. All it's really doing is lumping stones into bigger units, which is kinda awkward. Cyclops would be deciding whether to put 1, 2 or 3 yellow stones into his action box, which is exactly the kind of minimal decision I'm trying to make. That's the POINT of this system... At the beginning of strenuous action you're hale and hearty, but as time wears on, you have to expend more and more energy just to keep up.... And it's not that complicated.... It's just a sliding scale that works. Non Complicated Example. Energy Pool 1 - Red Level - 3 Red Stones = 1 Red Each Energy Pool 2 - Orange Level - 6 Orange Stones = 2 Red Each Energy Pool 3 - Yellow Level - 9 Yellow Stones = 3 Red Each Energy Pool 4 - Green Level - 12 Green Stones = 4 Red Each Energy Pool 5 - Blue Level - 15 Blue Stones = 5 Red Each Energy Pool 6 - Indigo Level - 18 Indigo Stones = 6 Red Each Energy Pool 7 - Violet Level - 21 Violet Stones = 7 Red Each Energy Pool 8 - White Level - 24 White Stones = 8 Red Each Energy Pool 9 - Gray Level - 27 Gray Stones = 9 Red Each Energy Pool 10 - Black Level - 30 Black Stones = 10 Red Each It reflects ALOT of different things. 1 You're going to Tire eventaully.... But with a VERY high Durability, it's going to be a LONG time before you do, as reflective of the comics. It Reflects that while hale and healthy, most things are easy for you, requiring only moderate strenuous activity. It reflects that when you start getting tired, effort becomes less effective. It's nearly perfect. The only flaw I can see with it is the fact that characters with high durability have a VERY great amount of stones... but doesn't that make sense with characters, like Hulk who can chuck an 18 wheeler to the horizon?
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 6, 2009 16:07:14 GMT -5
I don't understand what that chart represents, I'm sorry. I know your explanation makes sense to you, but it doesn't make any sense to me at all. I'm not talking about the theory, I literally don't understand any of these sentences:
Can you start from the beginning?
~TWF
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Post by Neros on Feb 6, 2009 16:09:34 GMT -5
Well, Im totally lost.. I don't understand that system at all... So when you have a energy pool of level 3, you have 27 red stones of energy? But whats the difference from the original rules except theres 10 different stones to keep track of?
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Post by Dionon on Feb 6, 2009 16:40:16 GMT -5
Neros pretty much as it right... it gives you alot of stones at the beginning, but it keeps the stones on the table to a minimum. Also the amount of stones slowly dwindle, as you get tired...
Maybe having different stones is a bad idea... Perhaps we should just have a little clicky thingie like the DBZ CCG had for Power Level...
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