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Post by vjcsmoke on Feb 7, 2009 12:07:42 GMT -5
Dio: I just don't see the need to base energy pool on max health. The amount of energy you need in your pool is much more closely related to your recovery rate. If someone tried to represent an Int-based character who had maybe 2 stones of health but a recovery of 6, their energy pool would also be 6. That would suck for them. I'd prefer to stick with Pool = Recovery x 5. vjcsmoke, I think consensus is already against any multiples of energy recovery rates. So far we're allowing players to simply choose their energy recovery at a very low price, and if you also offer them the opportunity to DOUBLE that, they're going to take it, every time. Then everyone turns out the same. It creates more problems than it solves (I can't actually imagine what problem it solves). The overdrive is a neat idea, but again, every player is going to have it, and they're going to use it every other panel, always. There is no reason not to. I'm generally opposed to that sort of thing. ~TWF Actually they wouldn't use it every other turn because the panels in between they'd be quite vulnerable with the half regen penalty. It would have to be a strategic decision to use it. And it definitely gives an 'oh crap' feeling when you realize you just pissed off the Hulk and he's going into Overdrive on your ass! Let me get this straight here... Pool = Recovery x 5?? If your energy recovery is 5 per panel, your energy pool is 25/25? I do think that 1.5x and 2.0x energy recovery options are necessary. And separating them from healing factor allows people not to be forced to take HF JUST to get better energy recovery. The most sensible place to put increased energy regen is on... the energy regeneration stat itself as an advantage. I'm thinking either with CLs or as flat cost advantages. +1 and +2 or +3w and +6w respectively.
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Post by soban on Feb 7, 2009 13:12:26 GMT -5
But if they are buying the energy gen stat to get a higher all they do is buy it at a higher AN instead of buying a multiplier. Prove that you need a multiplier, then it might make sense.
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Post by Dionon on Feb 7, 2009 13:27:10 GMT -5
Interesting... I hadn't read that... How I misssed it I don't know... .but.. all the same... I can see it, and think it's an honestly better idea. Though x5? Where did that come from?
Hmmm... you know... another solution could be doing it where it's "Energy Pool x5" and you regenerate 1/2 of that every turn (round down).... It's simple, easy, and doesn't need 3 abilities to place.
So if you a have a Energy Pool of 3, you'd have an EP of 15 and a Recovery of 8...
Hmmm... maybe not... that does seem kinda big......
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 7, 2009 14:00:54 GMT -5
Actually they wouldn't use it every other turn because the panels in between they'd be quite vulnerable with the half regen penalty. It would have to be a strategic decision to use it. And it definitely gives an 'oh crap' feeling when you realize you just pissed off the Hulk and he's going into Overdrive on your ass! They almost certainly will use it every other panel, for two reasons: a) Overall, you get more energy that way. Take for example a character who recovers 6 energy per panel. - Panel 1: Spend tons of energy. - Panel 2: Overdrive. Recover 12 energy. - Panel 3: Weakened. Recover 3 energy. - Panel 4: Overdrive. Recovery 12 energy. - Panel 5: Weakend. Recovery 3 energy. And so on. On average, they're recovering 9 energy, which is better than 6. The only time this is a bad idea is if you're right at the very end of your energy pool because yes, you'll be screwed during your weakened phase. However, until you fully exhaust your pool, you'll effectively be recovering 1.5x as much energy every panel. There's almost no reason not to buy it. That's the idea we covered, already, I think on the first page. A major, major part of energy reform is increasing energy pool. Why? Because the #1 complaint that just about every player has with MURPG is that characters wear the crap out too quickly. It badly needs to be fixed. Soban is right. At some point, it becomes stupid not to buy x1.5 or x2 energy. I think it's unnecessary because the way we're setting up the system, you can just buy whatever energy recovery you want. Instead of Recovery 4 and x1.5, just buy 6 and be done with it. ^__^ Plus, we avoid those odd-number, raction-rounding messes. They're especially annoying online when you have to go back a page to see what you recovered last round. Is it 4 or 5 this turn? That sort of thing. We're proposing removing all energy multiples. Healing Factor costs drop (I agree with WK that they should have a flat cost, rather than a scale based on your Dur, but we haven't officially decided that yet). ~TWF
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Post by malice on Feb 7, 2009 16:14:56 GMT -5
Healing Factors should not be bought at a flat cost. Do you really think someone with 7 durability isn't getting way more advantage with a Healing Factor than someone with 3 durability? Just think of how much damage it takes to drop them compared to how much most people can generate. High Durabilities with Accelerated, Enhanced, or Instant Healing Factors can fight people with lower durabilities effectively forever. THAT'S why you pay for a Healing Factor based on your durability.
Please stop making the mistake of thinking those three Healing Factors convey their greatest advantage in the form of energy regeneration. That's the mistake of someone who doesn't encounter them much. White stone regeneration is just as powerful if not more in the hands of a barely-skilled player, let alone someone who knows what they're doing.
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 7, 2009 16:24:08 GMT -5
I actually don't think Accelerated Healing Factor is that useful. 1 white every 2 panels? If you're taking any damage at all, 1 white every 2 panels isn't going to help much during that fight. What it will do is get you ready to face the next one at full health.
Aside from removing the energy boost, there's another reason for reducing the cost of Healing Factors: I think we're pushing for a system where energy recovery isn't diminished as you take damage. Thus, it's rather irrelevant how damaged you are, so long as you aren't KO'ed or dead.
In that light, Healing Factors are very important to low Health characters too. Someone with 2 Health who takes 1 white is VERY close to being knocked out. Someone with 7 Health who takes 1 white doesn't have to worry so much.
I think a fixed price is the best way to go.
~TWF
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Post by Dionon on Feb 7, 2009 16:36:49 GMT -5
If you don't think Accelerated is important, they you must think the ones down from there are crap... But remember something... each of them represents something in the comics (except Rapid Recovery which was made by fans to give an energy regen boost)
2x - Was made to represent how Cap heals faster than normal, but not that fast Healing - Was made to represent how Spiderman can have his ribs broken one night, and be a little sore the next day (And yes, it's established that Spiderman has a healing factor) Accc - Was made for Wolverine (And yes, 1 white every 2 panels is useful... I've used it to devastating effect every time I have it) Enh - Was technically made because the Hulk technically heals faster than Wovlverine Inst - Was made because Wonderman could be hurt, but he never showed it and it never slowed him down.....
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 7, 2009 17:01:09 GMT -5
Yeah, I totally agree with your assessment of what they represent in the comics. But this is how I look at them in the context of a MURPG game:
x2 Natural Healing Rate It isn't often that characters begin an Issue not at full health. A lot of super hero groups/teams have access to some kind of healing, whether it's medical, mutant or magical, whatever. If someone ends a story arc with wounds, it can usually be assumed that they get healed up during "downtime". In cases where no such healing is available, I've seen GMs handwave the damage away. It may come in handy in certain situations, but mostly it won't make a difference. I think it's about flavour more than anything.
Healing Factor Since this takes hours, it isn't going to help you at all during an actual fight. But what it DOES do is get you ready for a fight that takes place the next day (or much, much later that day). Helpful in story arcs that last more than one day.
Accelerated Healing Factor 1 white every 2 panels, as I've already said, doesn't help you a whole lot in a fight. Most MURPG fights don't last very long, giving you very little time to heal. If you're injured on the very first panel, you won't see any healing at all until the start of the third. Handy in a long, drawn-out battle (especially 1 on 1 duels where nobody is around to save your ass) but not game changing.
Mostly, when one fight is over, you're ready for the next one, almost right away. This lets you take a few more risks in a fight, which is great for the in-the-thick-of-it Wolverine types. It's great to have one of these guys in every team because you can always count on them.
Enhanced Healing Factor This is where you're starting to get serious help from your Healing Factor. You can get sloppy if you like, and you'll still be okay. It won't stop you from one-hit KOs, but anything else is manageable with carefully timed defense.
Instant Healing Factor I'd say most of the time Enhanced is more than sufficient for most close combat fighters, when combined with decent defense. Instant is the point where your Healing Factor becomes your defense. As long as you know you aren't going to be one-hit-KO'ed, go all out.
That being said, it won't save your skin if you're facing multiple opponents. Defense applies to everyone, but you only have so many health stones - you gotta survive the page in order to heal. If you don't make these kinds of intelligent gambles, you're wasting your Healing Factor; you're probably better off with Enhanced.
That's my take on HFs. In practice, that's what they do. Costs should be proportionate.
~TWF
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Post by vjcsmoke on Feb 7, 2009 17:47:48 GMT -5
Re: Overdrive. Ok make the drawback over the next 2 panels then.
Regular Regen 6.
Overdrive panel. Regen 12. Penalty. Regen 3. Penalty. Regen 3.
This makes the use of Overdrive a tactical decision and more of a risk. At this point the overall generation is the same, so it should probably be a free option.
I thought about energy regeneration via CL and I think it's more sensible to cost it via the multiplier.
Thus if you have 1.5x energy regeneration, multiply the cost for your energy generation by 1.5x. If you have 2x energy regeneration, double the cost you pay for your energy generation. Doing it this way allows the cost to scale fairly. You get what you pay for.
I've already given a reason why energy multipliers are necessary. To explain guys like Cyclops, Magneto, Hulk, etc. who can output a lot of power per panel without seemingly getting tired unless they are really pushed. IE Hulk has to face off against Abomination or Cyclops has to take out a huge asteroid to save the earth.
Looks like I wasn't the only one who was surprised that 'we' had settled on 5x energy pool. But if everyone else likes the idea, I'm not averse to it. I was working on the assumption of 3x.
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 7, 2009 18:02:53 GMT -5
Re: Overdrive. Ok make the drawback over the next 2 panels then. Regular Regen 6. Overdrive panel. Regen 12. Penalty. Regen 3. Penalty. Regen 3. That's more balanced, I think. Worth playtesting. I still worry that it might become a little mundane if everyone can do it, but since it has a more critical drawback, it's now at least worth thinking about whether or not to use it. And that's a step in the right direction. ^__^ So, let me see if I understand this. Assuming Energy Recovery costs the same as any other Ability (such as Strength, Int, etc): - Recovery 6 would ordinarily cost 4 white. Recovery 3 would only cost 1 white. - With the x2 option, you could double Recovery 3 for only 2 white. So... why wouldn't you? If those characters want high energy recovery, they just have to buy it. It's been proposed that Durability and Recovery are separate now, so why not buy whatever you like? Example: Let's say we're building Cyclops and we want to give him lots of energy, since he never seems to run out of Optic Blast. Int 3 (1 white) Str 2 (2 red) Agi 2 (2 red) Spd 2 (2 red) Dur 3 (1 white) Recovery 6 (4 white) Done! It's quick and easy. Why bring multipliers into the mix? I'm sorry, I didn't mean to offend anyone by using "we". By "we" I just meant the people who supported the idea (somewhere on page 1 or maybe 2 of this thread). I couldn't very well say "I" because it wasn't entirely my idea. If someone is opposed to increasing energy pools, they can still speak up. Nothing is decided yet. ~TWF
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Post by Dionon on Feb 7, 2009 18:59:30 GMT -5
You could always break Health down further....
Take
Health Energy Pool Energy Regeneration
and make it
Health Health Regeneration Energy Pool Energy Regeneration
You get 2x your Health Score and, in a reversal, you can choose how fast you recover based on lowered stones (IE 15 stones would get you 1w/Panel, while 3 stones might get you 2x Natural Healing Factor)
15 2w/panel 12 1w/panel 9 1w/2 Panel 6 1w/hour 4 1w/2hour 3 1w/12 hour
That way it's a straight up modifier....
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 7, 2009 20:06:31 GMT -5
Dio, I don't know what you mean with "you get 2x your Health Score" (get "what" exactly? white stones? energy?).
Otherwise, that's basically what WK already proposed, and what I've been supporting so far. Not sure about the costs exactly, but the idea is that it's just a modifier with a set cost (unrelated to durability).
I don't see a big difference between 1w/hour and 1w/2hours. Either way, we're still talking about "later that day...". Only in a few cases will only 1 hour pass, but not 2 hours, know what I mean?
~TWF
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Post by Dionon on Feb 7, 2009 20:48:08 GMT -5
You know... HEALTH... as in HEALTH... as in HP....(IE white stone of Health... I guess it was a little hastily written, I just couldn't resist the ribbing)
As for the costs... Yeah I know, but I wanted to get one for all the stones from CL5-CL10
And I didn't realize that you and WK were doing something like this... I came in a little late on this topic....
Well consider me on your side then.
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 7, 2009 20:56:52 GMT -5
WHAT is equal to x2 your Health Score? That's what I'm asking.
If your Health Score is 4, you get 8 WHAT? 8 dollars? 8 bananas? 8 what? I don't know, so please tell me. lol
~TWF
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Post by vjcsmoke on Feb 7, 2009 21:34:52 GMT -5
Ok to understand the new health system first let's summarize the old one.
1.0 Health Regen
FREE Regenerate 1 Health per 24 hours DN+2 Healing Factor. Regen 1 Health per hour DN+4 Accel Healing Factor. Regen 1 Health every other panel DN+5 Enhanced HF. Regen 1 health per panel DN+7 Instant HF. Regen ALL health per panel
Plus they also had energy regen multipliers attached to them. But we've decided to strip that for 2.0 so let's ignore that.
Now in 1.0 1 Health = 3 red units of damage. If we make this more arcadey, 1 Health = 3 HPs. So let's try a linear regeneration of HP?
FREE Regenerate 1 Health per day (3hp per day) CL +1 Regenerate X HP per hour = approx. HF CL +2 Regenerate X HP every other panel = approx. Acc HF CL +3 Regenerate X HP per panel = Enhanced HF-Nearly Instant HF
Sample Deadpool
Health 4 (12 HP) Health Regen 3 (Heals 3 HP per panel ie 1 health per panel) +3 CL per panel rate Energy Pool 4 (20/20e) Energy Regen 4 (Regens 6R per panel) 1.5x energy rate
And there you go. A very straightforward build.
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