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Post by soban on Feb 4, 2009 16:13:52 GMT -5
Ok, I think that most of us agree that we need to use a single kind of stones (referred to as blue stones). This thread is about how much it should cost and stuff like that.
A few of my thoughts. If in general we are getting rid of cost levels (Not the old chart) and using power class to cost thing. Options should be priced outside of the chart. Something like,
Flying Beta Level Skill Allows you to fly around at the speed of your AN 3 stones you can hover without spending stones
what do you think?
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Post by Jet on Feb 4, 2009 16:53:40 GMT -5
Its easier to just make AN's and cost levels. Remember that there are learnable skills that are way better then any power out there.
I have something else in my mind. In many RPG's (most notably DCU RPG, which I lost a PDF of ;( ) there is a different cost for "Buying" a power/skill and different for upgrading it. For example:
Skill #1 -Cost to buy at AN 1 = AN + x stones -Cost to upgrade to AN 2 = as above + 1 cost level
Why do I bring this up? Becouse lets face it- there are many powers that are useful as they are on lowest AN there is and dont gain much from upgrading. For example:
Phase Shift- every level only adds to duration, but we all know that AN 1 will be enough for 99% of the walls you're going to meet, and more AN wont help any more with fighting/evading enemies anyway
Shape Shifting/Invisibility- sure, more will make you harder to detect, but who can actually detect AN 1? Guys with animal senses or enhanced vision, maybe some machinery, while all the others (Im guessing 90% of Marvel world) wont even detect one with AN 1. Upgrading it wont really do much, unless you expect to have such enemies
Stretching- the cost is very, very high and at AN 1 you can do a lot of stuff- stretch up to 200' (which is more then you'll need in a typical game), become unbreakable, combine it with combat for enhanced range and stuff. When you upgrade, you only get more range (not worth it) and can combine more stones with Close Combat and other stuff... and nothing else. Hardly worth upgading past AN 1
I can go on. The point is- cost levels as a general idea is cool, but I think having additional cost for just "getting the ability to use such skill" would be a good idea. Not counted in Cost levels, but in raw stones (blue ones).
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Post by Dionon on Feb 4, 2009 19:14:00 GMT -5
It's actually easiest to use Cost per Ranks...
IE: Flying.... Gamma Level Power.... Gamma Level powers require 4 stones per rank to purchase.
Buying Flight at Rank 5 is 20 stones...
Simple, easy, and Advantages and Disadvantages move the Rank up and down.... Like
Flight 5, Limited Manuver, Limited to Speed 5, Limited to Speed 2 when carrying others would cost 8 stones (Rank 5 - 3 ranks of Disadvantages = Rank 2 power or 8 stones)
That's what I'm proposing honestly...
We split the Powers into
Epsilon-Delta: Restricted to Fluff actions like Colossus' Art: 1 stone per rank Delta: Restricted to what was once +0 CL actions - 2 stone per rank Gamma: Restricted to what was once +1 - +3 actions - 4 stones per rank Beta: Restricted to what was once +4 - +6 actions - 8 stones per rank Alpha: Restricted to what was once +7- +9 actions - 16 stones per rank Omega: Anything above +9 CL - 32 stones per rank.
Now how does this figure with say Masteries who get up to Omega really quickly? Simple... Eliminate the broken ones... and make the rest of them only move the rank up 1 per...
So... take Johnny Storm...
He has
Mastery of Fire: Rank 7
This begins as an Delta Power because there is nothing to it yet, no options.
He puts on - Create/Manipulate Fire that's a +1, moving him into the Gamma Range.
He then puts on - Force Blast, another +1, he's still in Gamma
Then - Accumulate to Massive Effect, under this system this stays a +1, so he's at the upper range of Gamma
Finally he adds Turn into Element. This, another +1, pushes him into Beta class, so his Rank 7 power would cost him 56 stones.
I know you're all saying "OMG Turn all options into +1" but they actually work out better that way.... Do the math y ourselves on say Magneto and see how much his costs.
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 4, 2009 20:16:46 GMT -5
Okay, some of this doesn't really work for me. I'll try to explain why. It's actually easiest to use Cost per Ranks... IE: Flying.... Gamma Level Power.... Gamma Level powers require 4 stones per rank to purchase. Buying Flight at Rank 5 is 20 stones... Simple, easy, and Advantages and Disadvantages move the Rank up and down.... Like Flight 5, Limited Manuver, Limited to Speed 5, Limited to Speed 2 when carrying others would cost 8 stones (Rank 5 - 3 ranks of Disadvantages = Rank 2 power or 8 stones) In the original system, higher ANs were more expensive per point, and I kinda liked that. I see you're doing away with that concept. Is there a reason why? I liked the old system because it differentiated between someone with a lot of small powers and someone with one gigantic bread-and-butter power. There was merit to that way of thinking. A cost-per-point system seems open to a lot of abuse. My problem here is that once you step into, say, Gamma territory, you suddenly get +2 CL of options for free. That seems.. very clunky. ~TWF
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 4, 2009 20:21:53 GMT -5
In general, I'm just not fond of any kind of universal price based on "how powerful" a given Action is. I like the way the existing system priced each action individually... I just dislike some of the choices they made regarding relative costs.
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Post by Dionon on Feb 4, 2009 20:22:43 GMT -5
1) Because personally I never liked the sliding up scale. In this, the general scale of the power determines it's price per rank. 2) This system as well allows differentiation between someone with a "Bread and Butter" power and someone with lots of little powers. It's mildly abusable yes, but VERY much so was the old system. 3) What are you talking about here? only +1 was disregarded because of the fact that I lowered all options to +1 after getting rid of the overpowered ones. Did I miss something?
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 4, 2009 20:41:10 GMT -5
1) Because personally I never liked the sliding up scale. In this, the general scale of the power determines it's price per rank. It comes down to difference of opinion/preference then, I guess. I just want to quickly explain what I mean by "bread and butter" powers being abused. Let's say for argument's sake that Close Combat and Ranged Combat are roughly the same price (I know there's talk of changing their prices, but I digress). One character wants to be well-rounded so he buys Close Combat 4 and Ranged Combat 4. That costs him X stones. Another character wants to specialize in one or the other (doesn't so much matter which). He picks one, and buys AN 8. It also costs him X stones. I shouldn't have to demonstrate how Player B got more bang for his buck. Less versatility, yes, but I think that's by far outweighed by having double the AN. It isn't a huge problem, but it's a problem. I'll try to give a similar example. Let's say someone (who isn't Johnny Storm) wants a Mastery of Fire. All he wants to do is Create/Manipulate, so the total cost works out to an equivalent of +1CL. That's a gamma-level power, so it costs him 4 stones per AN. Another guy wants a Mastery of Fire too, but he wants Create/Manipulate, a Force Blast, and Immunity to Element. That works out to +3CL. It's still a gamma-level power, and so it costs him 4 stones per AN. Unless I've made a mistake here, player B is getting something way better for the same price. ~TWF
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Post by Dionon on Feb 4, 2009 21:22:02 GMT -5
Wait... how bout a little reworking of the playing field here...
Epsilon-Delta: Flavor Delta: +0 - +1 Gamma: +2 - +3 Beta: +4 - +5 Alpha: +6 - +7 Omega: +8 or above
I think that's more fair.
NOTE: If you saw a longer post here before, you weren't seeing things... it really was there, but I realized that I might have been in error, and decided to spice things up a bit.
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Post by Dionon on Feb 4, 2009 21:24:06 GMT -5
Masteries are still a big bitch to deal with... I honestly say we should change them from a Package Deal and deal with each option as if it were a potential Action or Modifier.
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Post by vjcsmoke on Feb 4, 2009 23:03:44 GMT -5
The sliding scale CL system is elegant in design. The flaws are not so much inherently in the CL system itself but more in the pricing of different powers. Ok given that certain packages with lots of options can become really powerful over time, it still takes time to upgrade them. There's got to be a way to fix it without reinventing the wheel imo.
The math for the costs is really bothersome to me as well.
Getting an Omega action at 1 rank is 32 stones. Getting Delta Close Combat at 16 ranks costs 32 stones.
I don't care if you have Phoenix Force 1, I will roll you with my CC 16 as your 1 stone of 2x damage phoenix blast bounces off my toughness.
I appreciate what you're trying to do, but the stone cost system proposed is inelegant and scales badly atm.
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Post by Thuellai on Feb 4, 2009 23:10:48 GMT -5
There's your main problem, right there, thanks to VJC. An additive system like this quickly creates out-of-scale powers and doesn't reflect the true ability of some powers. We do need to re-balance costs on things, but not in such a flat "this costs double the stones of this" way. High ANs are a big deal and should, from a cost perspective, be more significant than the base power itself. I also think we should account for powers like earlier posters mentioned, that never go up past 1 in most cases because of effectiveness - personally I think Phase Shift, at least, could be handled much better if it worked more like Steal Superpower - you either can phase or you can't.
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Post by Dionon on Feb 4, 2009 23:12:13 GMT -5
The Sliding scale CL system is just the D20 Point Buy system with some pretty colors added. It's flawed, prone to massive abuse, as we've seen in the past and has no thought whatsoever to the fact that some of the "more expensive" powers are hardly useful without either massive downtime, or an energy source.
The scale still STOPS at 10, we've all agreed on that, so Go ahead, buy your close combat of 10... I'll be in space with my Phoenix Force...
You'd the same CC (approximately) in the CL system as you would in MY system for Phoenix Force Rank 1.
In the CL system... Close Combat 14 is the same price as Phoenix Force 1 In my New System... you get Close Combat 16... I'd say I'm doin pretty good for the course.
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Post by Dionon on Feb 4, 2009 23:15:21 GMT -5
There's your main problem, right there, thanks to VJC. An additive system like this quickly creates out-of-scale powers and doesn't reflect the true ability of some powers. We do need to re-balance costs on things, but not in such a flat "this costs double the stones of this" way. High ANs are a big deal and should, from a cost perspective, be more significant than the base power itself. I also think we should account for powers like earlier posters mentioned, that never go up past 1 in most cases because of effectiveness - personally I think Phase Shift, at least, could be handled much better if it worked more like Steal Superpower - you either can phase or you can't. It doesn't really once we sit down and rethink each and every power in the book and place them accordingly. You're right... Phase Shift should be a standard modifier, now we have to cost it. I believe Kitty was rated as being a Gamma Level Mutant... rather ironic that Phase Shift falls into my Gamma Rating without me remembering that till now... You see, you are all seeing the goal, while I'm sitting here still building the track. Forget everything you know about the old Marvel System when you come in here... We're starting fresh. Comparisons to the old system are sometimes good to show something is either too good, or unfair, but other than that, let's not make it about fitting our new system into the old...
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Post by Thuellai on Feb 4, 2009 23:19:37 GMT -5
I've played basically every point-based system out there. BESM3e, Hero 5ER, GURPS in various editions, Tri-Stat dX, Silver Age Sentinels, etc. My experience with point-buy systems is this:
Systems which do not account for the exponential value of higher levels of an action (in other words, systems where the cost of things is purely additive and doesn't follow a scale that makes higher-level powers significantly more expensive) are more prone to abuse, ESPECIALLY in high-cost games. Flaws that don't show up in a low-power example become blatantly obvious when more and more stones are introduced to the picture.
And as far as it goes? With the stones I'm NOT spending on those six ranks of Close Combat, I'll buy Self-Contained Life Form and low-level flight, catch up to you, and still thrash you on the same price basis.
EDIT: Assuming, of course, you could even REACH escape velocity with one level of Phoenix Force, but this being comics, we've got to accept some violations of common sense.
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Post by Dionon on Feb 4, 2009 23:27:58 GMT -5
Thank GOD I have reconstitute self....
I'm sorry... but there's nothing you're flying, self contained life form, 10 level Close Combating person can do to keep my Phoenix Force 1 character down for more than an hour. That's why Phonenix Force shouldn't honestly be allowed at all...
But I can see your point... Perhaps a more progressive scale... I did multiples because those are the easiest to grasp by anyone and everyone... I still want to do a cost per rank system... I'll just mash up the Power costs...
E: 0 (still... just... flavor) D: 1 G: 3 B: 6 A: 10 O: 15
That's one...
E: 0 D: 1 G: 3 B: 5 A: 7 O: 9
That's another... it's kind of cheap, but...
E: 0 D: 1 G: 4 B: 8 A: 13 O: 19
I think 3 examples of mashups should suffice.
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