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Post by Jet on Feb 6, 2009 19:39:28 GMT -5
I dont even "know" what Artificial Inteligence actually is to begin with! What does it do? THAT needs to be explained. Also:
Convertible to human form- is there any other action it applies to? I think it has something to do with Flight (with wings) as well, but mostly its useless. Especially if you choose to have claws of the size of your finger nails, when this advantage isnt needed anymore.
Additional Element- I have yet to see a character with that. Is there any benefit for it, other then occasionaly being able to hit a weak point of specific opponent?
Overstrain- Where do I begin? First off- losing power for few days sucks and there is no cost difference between days and hours version. We need a clarifications here!
Automatically causes collateral damage- A lot of people take it, but what does it actually do is entirely up to GM. More explanation needed, please.
Counterattack only- Again, many people are having troubles with it, so more explanation could be handy.
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Post by Kaimontfendo on Feb 6, 2009 20:29:42 GMT -5
I dont even "know" what Artificial Inteligence actually is to begin with! What does it do? THAT needs to be explained. My point exactly. I've seen people take Action-As Modifier, with the Artificially Intelligent advantage (as costly as that is) to basically have an action that kicks on when certain conditions are met. One example was a character who would be teleported back to their HQ if they were knocked unconscious. If it were applied to Metamorphosis in this manner (*cough*CostsSeveralTonsOfStones*cough*), you'd automatically morph adaptations to various forms of danger. Still, the advantage is costly and not explained at all.Tongue/Tail/Tendril Whips, I guess. I don't have the list of actions in front of me at the moment, but that's all that comes to mind.I've built two characters with it. (Interestingly enough, both of them have Sonic as an Element.) As great as it would be to be able to buy different advantages for each element, that doesn't work nicely with costs. I suppose it could be tweaked so that each additional element provides a free advantage of equal or lower cost to the most expensive advantage bought. (Give me some time to build an example.) EDIT: Okay, I've got my example! John has been genetically engineered to be a symbiote-slaying machine. (That's why he has Fire and Sonic Elements. Ok?) His Force Blast action could look something like this. Force Blast: 6 Fire: x2 Damage Sonic: Area Effect For a price breakdown, it would be AN 6 +3 Area Effect (which only applies when using a Sonic Blast) +1 Additional Element (Fire, which includes "free" x2 damage.) Total: 10 Cost levels or 15 white. (someone else can figure it out for the new price structure.) I know people will disagree with that price structure, but I figure it's not so bad, considering he can't use both at the same time, and still has to pay full price for the most expensive one.
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Post by Jet on Feb 7, 2009 6:50:33 GMT -5
Sorry Kai, I dont like this. Its like buyint "2x Damage or Area Effect", except you use two different elements. Definately not what Im looking for.
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Post by vjcsmoke on Feb 7, 2009 11:12:13 GMT -5
I think the best way to balance action as modifier is to make it count as one of your 2 actions for the turn. Unfortunately this kind of punishes the people who want to take A2M on something like flying so they can hover in place without expending one of their precious 2 actions per turn. I think A2M is not so bad for movement based actions or actions that only affect your own character but it gets dicey when it is applied to actions that can be used offensively.
AI on powered armor is one of the more broken elements of the game. If you've got an AI 6 you can do 6 actions per panel in addition to your 1 action of controlling the PA and your character's remaining 1 action that he/she is doing personally. IN addition to Ironman/War Machine's uber stats for much lower prices than normal characters, they could potentially hit 6 more targets in a turn than a character without PA. PA rules need to be reexamined imo.
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 7, 2009 13:47:23 GMT -5
Ack, I'd like to keep us talking about one thing at a time, please. If we keep switching topics, we'll never get anything accomplished. Powered Armor will have its own thread. We'll get to the other Dis/Advantages that Playah brought up (I have ideas too ^__^) in a while.
Current topic is Action as Modifier, at least until we can put together consensus.
Now, I've proposed a couple variations/derivatives of the old Action as Modifier. I'm going to try to put them in a more polished form. (NOTE: All cost levels are just suggestions; I've aimed high, just in case.)
[/i][/quote] This is for characters, such as Hellion, who are often depicted doing at least 3 things at the same time. Hellion typically flies/hovers, uses a force field and telekinesis all in the same panel.
The cost is pretty prohibitive, but if you guys are worried that some players might be whipping out 4+ Actions, we might want to put a limit on it (2 actions and 1 free action max). We never really had a problem with this with the old Action as Modifier, so I don't think this is necessary.
Free Action is great for powers with a per-round upkeep cost, such as Invisibility, Shapeshifting, Create Illusions, and so on.
[/i][/quote] A caveat/warning of sorts for GMs: This is only meant for characters who have a serious imbalance in energy vs the output of a single Action. I chose Cyclops as an example because, while he's effectively an ordinary, athletic man, he has one massive force blast that never really seems to run out of juice. Characters with an Unlimited Power advantage should have comparatively low energy recoveries. Be wary players who want everything for free, all the time.
A caveat for players: If you have decent energy, you may be better off with Efficient. It's also much more fun (in my opinion anyway) to have to decide how many stones to spend and what, if anything, to save. Blasting the same number of stones every panel might get boring for ya, but then again, it might not. ^__^
[/i][/quote] This is basically the good old "Action as Modifier", just appropriately renamed. Friggin' expensive, because it should be - this shouldn't be something that every character has. I chose Cap as an example because he's exceptional.
[/i][/quote] So, this is the biggest mess. I think there should be a rule in this spirit which enables players to build their own Modifiers - ACTUAL modifiers, which, you know, modify stuff. It's just how to price it.. that's the issue.
I like the Targeting system of 1:1 stones from the GP because it doesn't let the Modifier do all the work, it just meets the player half-way. Ideally, Claws and similar modifiers should work this way.
Yes, this is cheaper than Claws - I think that's okay because frankly, Close Combat needs a boost, and Wolverine's adamantium claws shouldn't be the standard for what a CC modifier looks like. It's also cheaper than Targeting (but I think that Ranged Combat should be more expensive - at least AN +1, so that's a help.)
By the way, I chose Daredevil as an example because he's another hero who's at/barely above peak human ability, but who tends to be exceptional in one area in particular. At least I always associate him with Acrobatics. Unlike Cyclops, is Acrobatics does tire him out, so he isn't a candidate for Unlimited Power. However, I think a small modifier is warranted.
I'm still uncomfortable with what I've written, and I feel it's open to abuse, but I think it's worth playtesting.
One quick note about Unlimited Power vs Action as Modifier: They both cost +3 CL so it may seem at first that Unlimited Power gives you more bang for your buck. But consider that Unlimited Power's cost adds directly on top of the Action in question, whereas Action as Modifier creates a new, small modifier. In practice, I'm pretty sure Unlimited Power is going to be consistently more expensive. I haven't done all the math, but the logic makes sense in my brain.
Once again, I'm not married to any of these Advantages, and I'm not married to the costs. I aimed high with the costs: I'm always afraid that if something is awesome and cheap, it becomes stupid not to buy it, and so EVERYONE AND THEIR DOG gets it.
The game mechanic allows for these distinctions - it's just a matter of whether we think we should allow them, and at what cost. Would love to hear what you guys think.
~TWF
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Post by Neros on Feb 7, 2009 16:41:14 GMT -5
Very good TwF.. Sounds really good.. I especially like the "Free Action thing", which should be limited to one per panel.. Some actions should not take a Action to keep up.. Like Manipulate Body Density (you might want flight to keep you from crashing through the ceiling, which now takes all you Actions and you can't attack or anything).... Question, does the Unlimited Power Advantage take and Action? Just my opinion, i think it should.. Another thing which I've been thinking about, should Modifiers help a player beat the Difficulty? One problem which there is in the system, is that a player could buy a low AN and then create a Modifier/Give it an ability bonus... Like buying Telekinesis 2 and a give it an Intelligence bonus (lets say you have Intelligence 8).. Now, that character is just as strong as Thor.. I might change my mind though after ive gotten some sleep
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 7, 2009 17:17:24 GMT -5
Very good TwF.. Sounds really good.. I especially like the "Free Action thing", which should be limited to one per panel.. I think it's a good guideline for GMs to keep in mind, at the very least. Maybe it should be a hard rule. *nod* I think its the safer way to go. GMs can always disregard the rule if they like. Yes, that was my intention. It should still take an action. Maybe I should be more explicit in my description. ^__^ Ooh, I'd like to write a whole thread about this, actually. In my games, I often require players to use only their Abilities or only their ANs to match certain difficulties. It's hard to turn it into a universal rule, but it would be good to make some guidelines. For example, breaking things. I think in another old thread we talked about how Cyclops has Str 2 and Close Combat 5. It doesn't make sense that he can just put 7 stones into his box and punch through steel. Even if 7 stones isn't enough to overcome the total resistance of the item, no amount of Cyclops' punching should tear through a steel door. Instead, I think only his strength should be compared to the difficulty. This would allow him to break wood, plastic, furniture and that sort of thing. That seems realistic to me. Some might argue that martial arts training can help with breaking objects, but honestly, not that much. I think a big part of martial arts training is in being able to do it without shattering your hand. I'd be willing to give a character a situational modifier if they have an appropriate Close Combat specialty, such as "Breaking". I do the same thing for leaping. I don't care how high your Acrobatics AN is, it doesn't let you leap across a city block. Only your Strength or possibly your Speed (if you have room for a running jump) should apply against the distance. ~TWF
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Post by Neros on Feb 7, 2009 17:34:32 GMT -5
Hehe.. Yea.. Remeber to explain as much as possible.. We don't want to make the same mistake as with the first book Close Combat is a very good example.. Even though you could throw out a 10 stone Close Combat to attacka steel door, if you have 1 in Strength theres a bigger chance that you will turn your hand into powder.. But since we are remaking the game, we can easility explain how you break stuf and what Ability bonus's/Modifiers help you beat a resistance.. Hmm.. Got another thought into my head, but it would require another Thread.. Combat & Ability Bonus'.. Like, would a High Strength allow you to hit someone as it does now?? And another Thought, how about a Out of Topic section for when you want to talk or ask about something?
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 7, 2009 17:42:03 GMT -5
Feel free to make a "Combat & Ability Bonuses" thread! Everyone's free to propose new stuff. ^__^
I'll open an General Chat thread too, maybe.
~TWF
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Post by vjcsmoke on Feb 7, 2009 18:07:20 GMT -5
Free Action +3 CL Applies to Actions only. Using this Action does not count against your normal limit of 2 actions per panel.
Example: Hellion buys Flight as a Free Action. Later, in combat with Predator X, Hellion uses his first Action to use Telekinesis, his second action to put up a Force Field. Because it is a Free Action, Hellion can put 1 stone into Flight in order to soar into the air, even though he's already used 2 actions this panel. I'd suggest that Free Action cost a +2. However you must still expend stones from your energy pool to make it work. This is useful as you said for hovering actions or maintaining invisibility. A limit of 1 Free Action per panel is also probably recommended. I get the idea you're trying for but I'd have to veto this because we are trying to move away from too many modifiers. Having a custom modifier for every action would be going over the top with modifiers. I don't see how this is any different from Hyper-Efficient, and hyper efficient was roundly criticized as being too powerful for its cost level. Counter Proposal: Superior Effiency +2. For every 2 stones you put into your action, get 1 free stone from the general pool. For example you have Force Blast 6 with a +2 Superior Efficiency advantage, you expand 6 stones into your action and get a 9 stone forceblast. A 50% stronger attack is not nearly as hard to handle as a doubly strong attack.
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 7, 2009 18:15:35 GMT -5
That's some great input, thanks! Yes, it was always my intention that Free Action still requires you to spend stones (it doesn't say that the stones are free, and in the example, Hellion allocates 1 stone). I'll make it more explicit later. And yes, maybe +2 CL is a better cost if we put in the limit of 1 free action per panel. I'm pretty much in agreement with everything you said, except this last part in regards to Unlimited Power: I don't see how this is any different from Hyper-Efficient, and hyper efficient was roundly criticized as being too powerful for its cost level. Counter Proposal: Superior Effiency +2. For every 2 stones you put into your action, get 1 free stone from the general pool. For example you have Force Blast 6 with a +2 Superior Efficiency advantage, you expand 6 stones into your action and get a 9 stone forceblast. A 50% stronger attack is not nearly as hard to handle as a doubly strong attack. While I'm not really a fan of Unlimited Power, technically it's just a nerfing of the old Action as Modifier: The stones are still free, but you still have to spend an action. Anyway, I don't like the free stone aspect either. Frankly, I wouldn't allow this in one of my own games except in some rare circumstances. But it's the counter proposal that I don't get. If the free stones you get exceed your AN, there's a balance problem in the works. Again, at some point it becomes silly not to buy it: Force Blast 9 = 12 white Force Blast 6, Super Efficient = 9 white. It's cheaper to buy, and cheaper to power for the same max output. That won't fly. ~TWF
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Post by Kaimontfendo on Feb 7, 2009 20:15:48 GMT -5
Sorry Kai, I dont like this. Its like buyint "2x Damage or Area Effect", except you use two different elements. Definately not what Im looking for. Except that it can be used for any two advantages, (and maybe disadvantages as well is your GM is really feeling nice) and I can slap together another example quickly if requested. Plus, at least it's an idea, which is more than anyone else has presented for it. So what exactly ARE you looking for it to do?!
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Post by vjcsmoke on Feb 7, 2009 20:42:30 GMT -5
But it's the counter proposal that I don't get. If the free stones you get exceed your AN, there's a balance problem in the works. Again, at some point it becomes silly not to buy it: Force Blast 9 = 12 white Force Blast 6, Super Efficient = 9 white. It's cheaper to buy, and cheaper to power for the same max output. It's a watered down version of what you just proposed. 6 stones for 12 stones output or 6 stones for 9 stones output what is easier to handle? And who would be the candidate for the latter version? I'd say Cyclops. Of course all of this might be irrelevant depending on how the energy rule is modified. If energy no longer becomes a problem, even the +1 efficiency advantage might no longer be needed.
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 15, 2009 14:47:57 GMT -5
I almost forgot this thread was up. ^_^ I'd like to propose taking "power is painful to use" off the Challenges list and make it a disadvantage instead:
I have an NPC in one of my games how suffers from this. One of my PCs has an even more exaggerated version (technically more like "power dangerous to self") who takes damage if he pushes his power to the limits of his AN, but its a little too tailored to the specific power to work as a generic disadvantage.
~TWF
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Post by Neros on Feb 15, 2009 16:03:24 GMT -5
LoL.. Never really thought about that it was on the challenge list But it sounds like a great idea.. How long is the extra stone from the pool lost? 1 panel? 10 Minutes? A day?
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