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Post by Kaimontfendo on Feb 9, 2009 1:41:07 GMT -5
I'd think that Rouge took the personality thing as a disadvantage. That definitely seems like a good idea to me! Steal Superpower and CopyA/A/M could be the same power with different options on it. Permanent Transfer, Power out of Control, Copy Powers at Range, Psyche Transfer, (Actually, psyche transfer has small upside: you get to ask the GM a question about their memories, which could easily provide you with important knowledge of security codes or something... at the cost of having part of whatever lunatic you touched running around in your head until the end of time.) I just thought of something else that could be interesting to do to Steal Superpower. Making it into a suped-up form of Energy Drain. If can use it to drain the target's Energy Reserve, they lose consciousness. If not, you can still get their powers, but they're still conscious. (Then again, if their powers have been transfered to you, they probably aren't much of a threat anymore. Dr. Banner may be the perfect example of this.)
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Post by vjcsmoke on Feb 9, 2009 11:42:19 GMT -5
Did a power gamer run over your dog? No... they've just ruined hundreds of hours of work of my own... thousands (possibly millions) of hours of work on behalf of others, with their selfish behavior. My main point remains - Let's just try to keep it civil. Insulting each other will get us nowhere. Please focus on the rules discussion WK. Speaking of the rules. I never did like the absorb personality aspect of Steal Superpower. Here's how I think it should work based on the proposal I made previously. 1 panel touch - you acquire the person's latest/most vivid memory complete with impressions/feelings. 2 panel touch - you also acquire a 'deeper' memory from that character that has greater meaning. it could be a childhood memory, a deep hidden secret, whatever. GM's discretion. 3 panel touch - IE permanent power transfer. This is the only time when personality trait from the target would be acquired. It should only be one particular strong aspect that can be roleplayed though. For example the target was a glutton or a playboy or arrogant, etc.
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Post by de5pa1r on Feb 9, 2009 16:49:25 GMT -5
It seems like everyone's insisting that Steal Superpower should take all of the victim's powers. Why can't it just take one per panel? I think it would be a lot less broken, but not neutered, that way.
Keep in mind that while the comics are enjoyable, I'm not basing any of my house rules on them. Focusing on making a (harder) better, faster, (stronger) more balanced game is my ultimate goal.
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Post by soban on Feb 9, 2009 16:55:48 GMT -5
I agree with Dispair. With the Steal superpower AN = the stolen superpower AN and the stolen superpower replacing the steal superpower slot.
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Post by Dionon on Feb 9, 2009 17:00:47 GMT -5
While I agree that it's a little BOOM to have all the powers stolen at once, it's condussive to what's been seen in the comics, and honestly, in my opinion, adherence to comic prescient comes before all.
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 9, 2009 17:07:39 GMT -5
Sorry, but BALANCE has to come before all.
If comic book precedent comes before all, then play free form. At some point in the comics, every imaginable (and stupid) thing has happened at least once.
I think that there should be a base version that steals one power, with an additive cost for taking multiple powers.
Remember, we're not constrained to use Rogue's ability as the BASIC version of a power... only as A version of the power.
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Post by Dionon on Feb 9, 2009 17:14:33 GMT -5
If we don't use hers as the base, who's do we use? How do we decide what the base is (Not that I don't like your idea, cause I honestly do...)
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 9, 2009 17:25:36 GMT -5
I'm not saying that there is a single character who is a better "model" for Steal Superpower than Rogue. What I'm saying is that the "base" power doesn't have to include everything Rogue can do, just like the "base" version of Telepathy doesn't include everything Jean Grey can do. So long as its there in the options, so long as the power CAN be emulated as Rogue uses it (within the bounds of balance), then its fine.
IMO, its much better to have a weaker version available to someone who wants to be Rogue-like, but doesn't have the stone count available, than to just have one uber-version only available at huge stone counts, just because Rogues version is so powerful.
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Post by de5pa1r on Feb 9, 2009 17:27:49 GMT -5
I'm not saying that there is a single character who is a better "model" for Steal Superpower than Rogue. What I'm saying is that the "base" power doesn't have to include everything Rogue can do, just like the "base" version of Telepathy doesn't include everything Jean Grey can do. So long as its there in the options, so long as the power CAN be emulated as Rogue uses it (within the bounds of balance), then its fine. IMO, its much better to have a weaker version available to someone who wants to be Rogue-like, but doesn't have the stone count available, than to just have one uber-version only available at huge stone counts, just because Rogues version is so powerful. Agreed.
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Post by Neros on Feb 9, 2009 17:31:35 GMT -5
True.. Its always good to have a base to build things from.. Something pure cost modifiers really was missing was "easy- to-alter" rules.. If you wanted Copy Super Powers to activate at a certain moment/trigger, if you can only Copy power from a single person, if you must consume some of the targets DNA, ect...
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Post by Dionon on Feb 9, 2009 18:38:17 GMT -5
My question was How do we define what Base is, not really "We have to use Rogue..."
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Post by soban on Feb 9, 2009 18:41:26 GMT -5
Ok, lets deconstruct the power that rouge has real quick.
From wikipedia
Rogue possesses the mutant ability to absorb psyches and abilities of individuals or several beings at once, though the experience can be confusing and disorienting for her. Rogue can absorb the memories, knowledge, talents, personality, and physical abilities (whether superhuman or not) of another human being (or members of some sentient alien races) through physical contact of her skin with the skin of that person (some times she also duplicates in herself physical characteristics of her victim). The victim's abilities and memories are absorbed for a one second to 60 second ratio of contact. The victim loses those abilities and memories for exactly the amount of time that Rogue possesses them. In the case of superpowered individuals, she also absorbs any extra abilities they might possess. This absorption usually leaves its victim weakened, and sometimes unconscious. Their powers may also be temporarily weakened or removed. Rogue cannot touch another human being without absorbing their memories, abilities, and superhuman powers (if any) and rendering them unconscious. However, evidence suggests that Rogue's inability to control her powers is psychological in nature. During the times when the Ms. Marvel personality would overtake her psyche, she was able to touch people without any absorption occurring. This fact has not been reconciled since.[21]
This transfer is usually temporary, lasting for a period of time relative to how long contact is maintained, but if Rogue holds on to her victim for too long, the transfer may become permanent, leaving the victim dead. Most often this process happens instantly when Rogue touches someone, but certain extraordinarily powerful beings have proven resistant to Rogue's power, and she may only share part of their memories and power.
As Rogue is absorbing the total psyche of a person, there is a risk of a personality overwhelming her and taking control of her body. It has also been shown that even though Rogue forgets the memories she has absorbed when a psyche returns to its body, remnants, or 'echoes', of the personalities of victims whose memories she has absorbed remain buried in her subconscious indefinitely, and while there is little to no risk of those personalities overwhelming her like the Ms. Marvel personality could, they can occasionally make their presences known.
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Post by Revan on Feb 21, 2009 7:58:11 GMT -5
I've been reading and thinking about this thread for a while now and I see a couple of ways this can go. I'll list the modifier version of steal superpower first, and I'll list my thoughts on the action version of steal superpower a bit later once I get it worked out in my head.
I figure the defense people put up against steal superpower has got to be worth something. I also tried to take into consideration that there were some people who when a drain aspect like Rogue and Fitzroy were applied, that person just shrugged them off. I'm also taking into account that several times Rogue has touched people without KO'ing them just to grab a minor ability of theirs for fun and kicks.
Steal Superpower Modifier: Automatically Combines with close combat: any damage that gets through is an attack on the energy pool. Should the energy pool drop to 0 or the amount of stones drained exceed the victim's durability, the target is knocked out for panels equal to the exceeding amount of damage. Victim takes no damage to their health. Player must also declare that he is attempting to steal superpower via touch.
1. Fitzroy gets through the defense by 2 stones, drains 2 off EP, victim has 2E left, he's still standing.
2. Same as above, except she depletes his energy pool in excess of 2 stones, victim is out for 2 panels.
Duration of Stolen Power # of panels equal to the stones that exceeded the defense of the victim. (First Panel) Second Panel of Hold is equal to the damage value of the first panel, but in hours. Third Panel. Same as above but for days instead of hours, also leaving the individual comatose for an equal amount of days halved. Fourth Panel. Permanent Power Copy. Victim is in coma for weeks equal to initial damage halved. It is also possible for the victim to die and the full personality of the victim to be absorbed causing the absorber to suffer from multiple personalities in which a constant struggle would ensue for control over the body. Which personality would be in control can be a random thing or totally up to GM discretion (possible plot hooks)
Extent of Stolen Power Stolen Power is equal to MN purchased and cannot exceed the A/A/M of the victim.
Here is just an idea I had of how to break down the power as a base.
Steal SuperPower: Allows you to COPY 1 A/A/M from anyone you make skin contact with up to your MN, but not exceeding that of the target/victim. Also copies partial memories and personality traits depending on duration of contact. Must specify whether you can copy action, ability, or modifier when purchased.
Advantages:
Can copy 2nd Catagory +1: allows you to chose which 2 of the 3 A/A/M you want to copy. Can only copy 1 A/A/M at a time. Now you can chose to copy from a second area instead of being limited to just copying an action only. You can now copy a modifier instead. You must choose an A/A/M when purchased and can not choose one you already have. For example, buying this option will let you copy an ability OR an action.
Full Copy A/A/M +2: You can choose to copy any 1 action/ability/ or modifier from your victim.
Copy 2nd A/A/M +1: Allows you to copy any 2 actions/abilities/modifiers. Must have Full Copy or Copy 2nd Category
Copycat +5: You can copy all A/A/M of your victim for simultaneous use
Multiple Targets +2: Can can copy and use A/A/M from multiple victims simultaneously
Disadvantages: Can't copy another A/A/M until the current A/A/M wears off -2
Copied A/A/M is hard to control/Out of control -2: You do not absorb the knowledge of how to use your newly acquired power. Or in some cases, how to stop it.
Full personality copied -2: IE, you touch sabertooth and are standing near logan, you have a hatred for Logan and will likely be prone to trying to kill him
Can't copy memories -1
Works on Normal Humans only -2
Works on Mutants only -1: Does not work on anyone that does not have an active X-gene. Will not work on normal humans or mutagenics like FF4.
I don't what the starting CL would/should be and I haven't tested the actual numbers and stuff. Just thought I'd put these ideas out there, you guys can take a look and see what you think. I'm hoping that with the way things are priced it would be kind of hard to make a game breaking character, but again, I haven't tested it yet. Well, there you have it guys, and I'm hoping that some of this stuff helps, if not, well, I had fun thinking it up. Good luck guys.
Edit: Made some clarifications.
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 21, 2009 10:32:26 GMT -5
Wow, this looks playtestable. I haven't been following this thread because I had long ago given up on Steal Superpower - I was just going to throw it out. But this looks promising.
I do have two concerns, and they're related:
a) I'm concerned that being able to negate energy by touch is a significant power all on its own. Balancing its cost vs Drain Energy is going to be essential. (Pros: you get to knock-out an opponent and steal their powers; Cons: you don't actually STEAL the energy, nor is there an Improved Drain option.)
b) I'm actually concerned that sapping energy equal to damage is going to take too long to knock someone out. We're increasing energy pools, and it won't be uncommon to find someone with 20 to 30 stones of energy in their pool. Touching should probably bypass Toughness, which will help in some cases. What we need is a rule for grappling for the system in general (I'd base it off the Entangle mechanic), but those rules are always easy to exploit. It's a sticky situation.
But this is certainly testable. I'll try to help come up with a base cost.
~TWF
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Post by malice on Feb 21, 2009 16:48:43 GMT -5
Making this an Action with an AN and Cost Level increases seems like a really bad idea... Having said that, I want to put a disclaimer on everything I say AFTER that: I don't think the action is broken as is . However, I'm going to speak as if I do. You're on the right track making the number = max level of their power you get. It's a shame my "Drink Blood" action was so damn complicated to put in writing, I thought it was alright and could have been useful. I think it should be a modifier that starts very expensive. I also think it should stay ALWAYS out of control, because that's a very good way to keep people from abusing it. It's frightening to your teammates, but a power like this should earn you the capacity to be ostracized anyway. It's one of the few powers I allow the other players to veto (I.e. if they don't want a person with Steal Superpower amongst them, they should get to say so and that person is screwed. Go make a new CAD). You should be able to increase you MN, you shouldn't be able to remove disadvantages in any way, but you should be able to add a select few.
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