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Post by soban on Feb 7, 2009 21:34:59 GMT -5
Ok, from the looks of the Energy thread, we'll be separating health and energy regeneration. This means that we will need to do a little bit of work on health. Here is my thoughts to kick it off.
You buy the health stones at normal cost. I think that keeping the 1-3 damage = 1 health is a good idea.
I think the healing factors should be expressed at CL adjustments to the health stats.
Thoughts?
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 7, 2009 22:24:59 GMT -5
Yeah, we need a thread for this alright. Thanks, Soban. ^__^
I suggest flat costs for Healing Factors. I think they're pretty much as valuable to high-health characters as they are to weak health characters, and so the price should be unrelated to health.
I suggest prices somewhere around these numbers:
1 white = x2 Natural Healing Rate (I'd be comfortable with removing this entirely) 3 white = Healing Factor 5 white = Accelerated Healing Factor 7 white = Enhanced Healing Factor
Honestly, x2 Natural Healing factor feels about as useful as any of the Self Contained Life Form modifiers; probably less so. Hence 1 white. For the others, I honestly tried to think "How much would I pay for this?"
If anything, I'd maybe up the cost of Enhanced. I really think it's useful in an actual fight, much more so than Accelerated. If I bought Accelerated, it would be tempting to spend a measley 2 more white to pick up Enhanced instead. Maybe it should cost 8.
Not sure how to price Instant Healing Factor. I'm starting to think that we should re-analyze Instant Healing Factor and Reconstitute Self, breaking them up into a gradient of modifiers. Which feels like another topic to me. It's just that Instant Healing feels closer to Reconstitute Self in nature than to a proper healing factor.
~TWF
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Post by Dionon on Feb 7, 2009 23:00:36 GMT -5
Up the costs, and I agree with you TWF. Personally I don't think Modifiers should be allowed under 3 stones.. So 3, 5, 8, 12 stones instead of what you have... cause increasing cost is something of a thing with this system and having a flat progression isn't worth it...
And no mocking Self Contained Life Form...It's a phenominally useful modifier if the GM actually knows to use it's there...
No Instant Healing Factor though.. just get rid of it... permenantly... gone... goodbye... I'm not even waving...
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 8, 2009 0:51:07 GMT -5
Why shouldn't Modifiers be allowed under 3 stones? You keep putting ideas forward without giving reasons for them, and I always have to ask you what you're trying to fix. lol
I can meet you part-way:
1 = x2 Natural Healing 3 = Healing Factor 6 = Accelerated Healing Factor 9 = Enhanced Healing Factor
By the way, you misunderstood: I wasn't mocking Self Contained Life form. I was actually complimenting it, saying that x2 Natural Healing factor isn't even as useful as, say, Doesn't Need to Breathe. Hence why I charged only 1 white.
I don't think I could possibly charge 12 white for Enhanced Healing Factor. That's what someone with Dur 4 would have paid, back when it still gave x1.5 energy AND energy diminished as health was lost. It's come down significantly in worth (assuming the system works that way; if we choose different rules, obviously pricing will change accordingly).
~TWF
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Post by Dionon on Feb 8, 2009 0:56:01 GMT -5
It's something that was said in one of the books, that all modifiers (that have set costs) start out at least at MN5 for costs... I don't remember where, but I like the idea because any lower is pretty much either an afterthought power, or a 'gotta yoink that' think, and think we should keep away from abilities that people only think about after everything else.... There's no reason to charge so little for an Enhanced Healing Factor... that's insane. 12 stones at least makes it prohibitive. It would have to make up a good chunk of who you were for 12 stones.
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 8, 2009 1:03:03 GMT -5
I just totally disagree, sorry. ^__^ I think you aren't realizing how little health stones do for you now. They're just stepping stones on the road to unconsciousness. Only when they're ALL gone are you in trouble - until then, you're a-okay. Healing Factors, even Enhanced, just slow that process down a little. For 12 stones you're better off with some better defensive modifiers.
EDIT: Also, the bit about all modifiers being at least 3 stones is BS. I'm sorry, but I can name several modifiers that cost less than 3 stones. Precognitive flashes, photographic memory, translation (normal and computer), and any individual features of Self Contained Life Form. x2 Natural Healing is next to useless and shouldn't cost more than any of those things.
~TWF
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Post by Dionon on Feb 8, 2009 1:28:06 GMT -5
Yeah I know about the less than that... It's NOT BS at all... I still forget what book, but they explain that all standard cost modifiers STARTED out as CL 5, and then through application of flaws and advantages, they became the costs in the book. I'm not BSing you, look through your copy of the book if you don't believe me... it's there.
Now... besides being insulted... we have this Healing thing to deal with. A Healing Factor should NOT be something arbitrarily picked up "cause I have a few extra stones" it's something that you invest in, something that defines part of your character.... They might not be worth as much anymore, but I'm sure you agree that most people that wouldhave Enhanced Healing, would also have the ability to keep out of danger should they need to.
But... since it's only the two of us debating this here, and I know I won't change your mind, let's table this until someone else comments.
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 8, 2009 2:04:51 GMT -5
Dio, I wasn't doubting you - if you say there's a passage about pricing modifiers in the book, then I'm sure it's there. What I meant is that the rule itself is BS. x2 Natural Healing isn't worth more than 1 white stone and that's all I care about. No offense intended, and I'm sorry if it didn't come across that way.
I don't think a Healing Factor should be arbitrarily picked up either; but making the cost prohibitive isn't the answer. Adamantium Skeleton only costs 3 white too, but how many characters do you see with it? Hardly any, I suspect. I also suspect the answer is because its hard to justify. Likewise, I give players enough credit to decide whether their character has a mutant healing factor or not.
The same idea applies to photographic memory. It's handy and only costs 2r.. but how many characters really should have it? Not that many. And that's what we see in practice, I think.
Powers should be priced based on what they're worth, not how rare they are.
~TWF
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Post by vjcsmoke on Feb 8, 2009 6:43:12 GMT -5
It's something that was said in one of the books, that all modifiers (that have set costs) start out at least at MN5 for costs... I've never seen that. And it would directly be contradicted by just about all the most common modifiers in the book: toughness, reflexive dodge, enhanced senses, targeting, etc. etc.. I'd like you to find this passage.
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Post by soban on Feb 8, 2009 8:27:43 GMT -5
Ok here we go
I think that 2x natural should cost 1 white stone. It does not seem worth more then that for me.
The basic healing factor is a kind of TV healing factor where no matter how badly someone was injured last episode, their back to normal this episode. I think that 3 white is fair is a bit on the low end.
Accelerated healing factor is when it starts to be a factor in combat. Because of this, I think that 9 white is a good number. I also think it should be 1 health stone per panel and every sone per panel after that is like +3 more white stones.
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Post by Neros on Feb 8, 2009 10:22:14 GMT -5
Since the cost will be flat, how will you add advantages/disadvantages? Like, 'only works when "insert condition".. Or 'must consume "insert element/serum/vegetable"'.. or 'have to kiss "insert name"'??
But compared to many other modifiers (photographic memory, self contained lifeform, ect), 2x Healing is never used.. I have never seen it be used in any of my games or games I've been in..
But I would say it should be based on the amount of Health a character has.. Its like if you boy 2x Damage to your Force Blast... If you have a low Force Blast, it wont make that huge a difference, and you pay for it accordingly, but if your Force Blast is a wooping 9, you will pay for it accordingly..
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Post by Dionon on Feb 8, 2009 11:14:15 GMT -5
Technically you can add advantages and disadvantages to a set cost power by converting the stone cost in to CLs...
Photographic Reflexes would be a +8 CL Modifier because there is no level it would be assumed to have been bought at MN1, or ON. So with that in mind, I could add advantages and disadvantages. Like if I wanted my Photographic reflexes to only activate if I touch someone, I could reduce the range from Line of Sight (which is about Range 4) and make it Touch Only, which would reduce the CL from +8 to +5. Now Photographic Reflexes costs 4 stones.... See what I'm saying?
For something like Precognative Flashes, it's Clairvoyance 1 with Uncontrollable (a -4 disadvantage) which makes it a +1 action, or 2r stones.... See how it goes?
That's why I say that every SET COST modifier (that was for you vjc, who completely misunderstood me.) starts out at a +5 cl, and moves up and down...
But, with that, I can see what you're saying TWF.... Since we're removing energy regeneration from the Healing Factor, it would make sense for them to be worth your cost, But while Healing and 2x are fine to me, I would caution about costing Accelerated and Enhanced to low. It's the same thing WK has about No AP. Eventually, if it's such a good option, everyone's going to take it and for 5 stones I would take an Accelerated Healing factor in a heart beat. Now at 9 stones, I might be hesitant until I could determine whether my character ACTUALLY has it or is it just going to be a power play.
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 8, 2009 12:03:50 GMT -5
That's a good point about Advantages/Disadvantages, Neros. I think a lot of us estimate what a cost level is worth to a modifier, as Dio explains.
I immediately thought of the same cost-as-cost-levels idea, actually. ^__^ Then I considered that some Modifiers might cost something strange that isn't on the chart, such as 7 or 8 white. But I have a possible solution for that.
Let's say something costs 7 white. Instead we could call it MN5+1. MN 5 = 6 white. 6 white + 1 is 7 white.
So, if you put a -2 CL option on a Modifier that costs MN5+1, it would instead cost MN3+1. That would be 2 white.
Dio: Yeah, i get what you're saying too. I'm also very wary of anything that is too good not to pass up. However, I think it's a little different when we're talking about the presence or absence of an entire power, such as Healing Factor. It's flippant and bad gaming, IMHO, to just pick a Healing Factor because you can afford it. If we all acted that way, we'd all spend 1 white on Precognitive Flashes and Photographic Memory, because why not? Totally worth it.
I'm in favour of making the costs a little more prohibitive, but honestly, i would never ever ever want to pay 9 white for Accelerated in the 2.0 system as we seem to agree on it (where regeneration is unrelated to health).
In almost any situation you'd be better off buying higher defensive modifiers or just tons more Health. 9 White will always buy you at LEAST 1 more point of Health - more likely 2 or more.
As I pointed out, even if you take damage on the very first panel, you won't see any healing returns until he start of the 3rd panel. You won't see a second healed stone until the 5th, and so on, and that's assuming you're being damage every panel. Considering that fights don't last very long (maybe they'll be longer in 2.0.. that would affect costs, for sure) you're probably better off with +2 health.
Accelerated is overrated. I think it's a great power, but it isn't as much help in combat as people think. What it's best for is healing you up to full health only minutes after a brutal fight.
~TWF
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Post by Dionon on Feb 8, 2009 12:59:27 GMT -5
Alright... I can see your point on Accelerated, my point was more directed at Enhanced.. tbh. Personally I feel that Enhanced is pretty much the best of the bunch (barring Instant, which shouldn't cost less than 30 of the old white stones) and should be at a premium.
I know you don't do what I described, and neither do I, but there ARE jerks out there that go "Ok... I have 9 stones left, cause I min maxed the HELL out of my powers.... What else can I... Oh look! 1 white stone back a panel... that's nice... YOINK"
I'm trying to make those jerks think twice before they ruin the game. Basically I'm throwing the bad apples away before they get into the basket.
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 8, 2009 13:37:24 GMT -5
Yeah, I think at the very least we shouldn't make any of our new rules too tempting.
And you're right, Enhanced is a big step up from Accelerated. Hm. Can't wait to hear what WK says on Monday. lol We need his big, juicy brain.
~TWF
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