Magnitude

[bubuniu]

The below text is what i propose to start discussion about what magnitude should be\look like. It's long but covers most topics i think. I know that is not perfect but it was not mean to be.


Magnitude
Magnitude is a 5 level scale of describing the followings elements:
-general power level although having high magnitude does not mean you are as strong/powered as Thing or Sersi already
-general experience level with dealing with super-powered beings which means that low powered heroes like Captain America can have high magnitude
-your overall enemies magnitudes of who you are able to fight\deal with at equal levels
-your overall scale of problems you can encounter.

Rule #1 It does not matter the way you fulfill the requirements. If you have to have strength 6 it could be either from Armor, weapon granted or body-self musculature\power.
Rule #2 One thing like Strength of 8, can fulfill more than one trait unless specified.
Rule #3 Fulfilling the requirements does not already means your magnitude will raise. See below.

You posses magnitude one when:
-you have at least 1 in all abilities (like J.J. Jameson)
-posses no or barely no combat related actions (like Robbie Robertson)
-have no or little experience with super-powered beings (like Aunt May or Mary Jane Watson)

You posses magnitude two when you fulfill two of following things:
-you have at least two abilities at human peak level, including Intelligence at any score higher than 3 like Punisher
-you posses extraordinary equipment like Vulture or Shocker
-you posses no powers\superhuman abilities OR posses small degree of it OR you can’t control\use them enough properly like Punisher (situation 1), Paladin’s strength (situation 2), or Komodo’s lack of experience (situation 3);
Extra explanation: small degree mean also possessing power which is not common within superheroes (like luck, sonar\radar senses) like Black Cat's bad luck or has no\little usage like in case of Cypher.
-you can create 4 stone defense and attack (it means you are able to attack and defend with 4 stone in one panel) in two panels, one after another like Punisher
-you are able to defeat at least two of magnitude one opponents within one or two panels without magnitude's bonus or be experienced fighter like Black Cat

You posses magnitude three when you fulfills two of following things:
-have peak human abilities or superhuman level ability(ies) like Spider-Man or Captain America
-have at least one combat improving (Force Blast, Mastery of elements, Force Field etc.) or useful (telepathy, wall crawling etc.) super power\strengthened beyond human limits skill like most of the X-Teams members
-be a powerhouse with at least listed traits: Strength 6, Toughness 4, Durability 4 like Moonstone; this one cannot be used with previous and first one because it’s already fulfill them too unless you have another trait that can fulfill them like Mooonstone and her Mastery of Light.
-be able to create 6 stone defense and attack in two panels, one after another like Black Knight (Dane Whitman) or Doctor Octopus
-you are able to defeat at least two magnitude one character within one panel without magnitude's bonus like Moonstone, Firestar or Cyclops or you have extreme combat prowness like Bullseye
-you are member of X-Men, New Warriors etc. or have few years of experience with magnitude 3 opponents; NOTE: this one cannot be obtained for starting characters unless they can fulfill requirements for magnitude three the normal way

You are magnitude four when you fulfill three magnitude 3 traits and two of following:
-be a powerhouse with at least listed traits: strength 8, toughness 6, durability 5 and one additional superpower action/modifier like Rhino’s Unstoppable or extreme combat prowness like Thing Close Combat 7
-you can defeat magnitude one character with no problems or magnitude two with minimum effort and both without magnitude's bonus
-your power has extraordinary scope or potential like Storm’s Mastery of Weather, Emma Frost’s\Xavier’s telepathy, Mr. Fantastic elasticity (while Mercury’s does not count) or Sandman’s sand form
-have at least two, different (not related\possessing similar source like telepathy and telekinesis), strong superpowers (abilities does not counts) which do not fulfill Powerhouse traits at the same time; example: Spider-Man does not count because he has no superpower action (all comes from abilities boosting “normal” actions), his prescience is one counting while his healing factor is not that strong. At the same time, Emma Frost does count with her telepathy and ability to transform into diamond form* just like Human Torch with Mastery of Fire and Flight
*Emma counts also due to powerhouse trait (or this one) and extraordinary power scope
-be able to create 6 stone defense and attack (at the same panel) in more than two panels, one after another like Mr. Fantastic or Rhino
-be member of Avengers, Fantastic Four etc,. or have at least few years with dealing magnitude 4 or 5 opponents or occasionally you saved the world; NOTE: this one cannot be obtained for starting characters unless they can fulfill requirements for magnitude four the normal way

You are magnitude five when you fulfill magnitude 4 requirements and one of following things:
-you are a powerhouse with at least Strength 9, Durability 6, toughness 8 and one, additional, strong superpower like Hulk or Juggernaut
-magnitude one or two is no threat to you: you can defeat almost countless/many of them at the same time
-you have amount and variety of equipment similar to Iron Man or Doctor Doom
-you are Sorcerer Supreme or have similar title like Doctor Strange, Ancient One or Thor
-you posses exceptional weapon that grant’s at least magnitude 3 traits and you are magnitude 4 character like Thor
-you posses god-like powers, power cosmic or (Partial) Phoenix Force with at least AN of 5 like Phoenix, Loki and Silver Surfer
-you are Captain America or Squirell Girl ()
-a)occasionally saved world and be member of Avengers, Fantastic Four etc. or have at least few years with dealing magnitude 4 or 5 opponents as to or b) saving world is like normal day activity for you; NOTE: this one cannot be obtained for starting characters unless they can fulfill requirements for magnitude five the normal way

Membership requirements are all at GM discretion: (s)he can allow them or not or even made them obtainable by starting characters.

Obtaining and raising Magnitude level:
Starting level:
Normally GM set starting magnitude and you can increase it buy fulfilling requirements and spending 5 stones/per increases. If GM does not set starting magnitude, you are automatically level 2, 3 if you fulfill requirements and have to pay for higher numbers. You can decrease your starting magnitude and receive 5 stone/level decreased.

Raising it during game:
You have to fulfill requirements and spend LOE/experience to improve it (how many, we will discuss it when we recreate experience system) or your magnitude automatically increase by if
-you fulfill at least magnitude 2 levers higher than your current requirements. Raise by one. By two if you were magnitude 1-2 and have fulfilled requirements for magnitude 5
-you are magnitude 1 and fulfilled magnitude 2 requirements: raise by one (like Vulture and his harness).
That is also mean, that loosing the requirements obtained by two last situation is considered by losing magnitude increase granted by them.
Example: Turbo was magnitude 1. She found her armor which grants her magnitude 3 but she can only become magnitude 2 now. She have to more experience to become magnitude 3. If she will lift Mjolnir she will became magnitude 3 (Mjolnir itself grants magnitude 4 traits). This allows you to lift Mjolnir or hack into Iron Man’s armor and become more powered one person with all privileges of it but it does not mean you become another Iron Man and Thor!

Privileges of magnitude levels:
-+2 bonus per magnitude level difference to character who has higher number. This bonus is granted to actions directly used against to character with lower magnitude which does not require to use mental or social defense. The fact you are stronger does not mean you are wiser or posses stronger will to defend telepathy attacks. The bonus is only for purpose of determining whether actions were successful or not and can be used only to one action/panel
Example 1: Spider-Man (magnitude 3) has +2 bonus to his attacks or defense against Shocker (magnitude 2) while he has to deal with 2 stone higher attacks from Rhino (magnitude 4) or his increased by 2 defense. Spider-Man does nor posses +2 bonus to his Acrobatics or Wall Crawling when she wants only to get closer to Shocker and when he can defend against him or damage without it. The same, if Rhino can defend or hit Spidey with no usage of this bonus.
Example 2: Emma Frost is dealing with Hellfire Clubs goons. The magnitude difference is 3 (magnitude 1 versus 4). It does not mean that Emma has +6 to telepathy to control their minds or damage them with mental bolts. But it allows her to not worry about her defense and just attack them mentally with her stones.

-+1 bonus per magnitude level difference to DEFEND against mental attacks, social skill’s changing attitude and similar actions if you are experienced with them. It’s only +1 because such defenses and attacks do not get high numbers (with exception to telepaths mental defense).
Example 1: Hulk has +2 do defend against Spider-Man’s or Daredevil’s speech to change his attitude “Hulk smash” to “Hulk NOT smash”. The same bonus, but +1, is apply when Emma Frost is dealing with him using her telepathy.
Example 2: Colossus or any other member of X-Men who spend many years/months with Xavier at his Institute can use such bonus against telepathy attacks. Even if Emma Frost is trying use her powers against them.

-+1 bonus to know threats of level equal or lower with all advantages and disadvantages of first one privilege with exception of increasing with magnitude difference. Both previous bonuses stacks with this one which nullifies first bonus disadvantage of no usage metal or social defense for this bonus only.
Example: Spider-man’s bonus against Shocker increased to 3 the same like Rhino’s against Spider-Man. But when Hawkeye will fight with them, then no one receive it. X-men’s bnus against Frost’s attack increase by 1 (to 2) just like Hulk defense to +3 against “NOT smashing” discussions.

[prodigy]

Personally....I can't see this being applied in any game realistically. Seeing as how most games on here are team orientated, how does this work with members of varying magnitudes?

[Dionon]

I'll be honest, I'm not reading that text block that was the first post... Since Magnitude was Mine and WK's idea, I'll tell you exactly how it works.

If this is even PART of the system after it's complete, it would work as the following.

The GM sets the initial Magnitude of the game between 1 and 5. 1 being Normal no powered normal humans, and 5 being Thor and Hulk level epicness.

Once that's set, the PCs can turn around and shift their Magnitude either 1 up for a cost of 5 stones, or get a 5 stone bonus for lowering their magnitude.

Magnitude is a measure of what power scale you're going to be on, and what you'll be facing on a daily basis. Those of different Magnitudes have a +/- 2 Situational Modifier depending on the relative Magnitude (IE Spiderman is Mag 3 and Cap is Mag 4, Cap has +2 to all his actions against Spiderman, while Spiderman has -2)

It's that simple.... If you're on a team with different magnitudes, you have to account for each person's magnitude vs the villain being fought. It's also a good measure of what kinds of villains that you can expect to be facing, as there is a 1 Mag swing either way (IE Spiderman is a Mag 3 hero and GENERALLY his villains range in power from Mag 2 [The Shocker] to Mag 4 [Kingpin] Most will fall into Mag 3 [Green Goblin] )

That's all... that's all it is.

[WildKnight]

Adding all of those additional levels of complexity is really unnecessary.

Applying a single, simple Modifier to interactions between characters of different magnitudes is arguably already more complex than things need to be (but I still think its a good idea)

[Dionon]

What complexity? Wait... do you mean Bubuniu's post... I tried explaining to him in the old thread about it, but it devolved into the above...

[WildKnight]

Yes, I meant bubu's post. Not yours.

[Dionon]

Yeah, I figured... that's why I broke it down into what we discussed.

[takewithfood]

I really do think that if you're going to suggest a fundamentally new mechanic, you should explain in great detail why it is necessary. Explain what you're trying to correct and how this new rule corrects it.

Because seriously, Dio and I debated this idea for like 5 pages because I had no idea what purpose it served.

~TWF

[Dionon]

There's no real detail needed honestly... It just explains why certain heroes and villans who should NEVER be in the league they take on can... It's why the Kingpin can hold his own against not only Spiderman, but Daredevil at the same time, and why Captain America can hold his own against beings like Ronin the Accuser by himself, while he's a fight for the ENTIRE Fantastic Four when he shows up..

[WildKnight]

Well, my biggest issue (that this corrects) is the fundamental difference in the comics between people of seemingly similar ability (Strength, Resistance to damage, and so on) who nonetheless are on clearly different levels when it comes to their participation in comic books, or even head-to-head confrontations.

As we've seen... Punisher is very close to Captain America in terms of training and raw ability, yet when they fight, Captain America beats Punisher like a red-headed step child.

Rather than "ramping up" Cap to an undeserved level or reducing Punisher to little more than a street thug, I think its best to simply admit the obvious disparity and create a mechanic to mimic this.

[Dionon]

Precisely

[takewithfood]

I guess that might make sense in some canon continuities, but as a general mechanic I'm left wondering why we can't just avoid these discrepancies. I don't see them as a good thing.

EDIT: I'm still looking forward to trying it. It might turn out to be more fun than illogical.

~TWF

[bubuniu]

First, I implemented all of your's ideas into the post. It is all there. What i added was only the way of deciding what you have to do to became magnitude X character, because, IMO, this is only missing thing. It also explains why Punisher is mag. 2 and Cap is 4. IMO, telling that Aunt May is 1 ant Thor/Hulk is 5 tells me nothing more than Aunt May is 1 and Thor/Hulk is 5. If someone can make it more simple, great! I can not. I'm to much addicted to details... making them too.

But everything in order.

1) Penalty etc.. NO! Big no to +2/-2 penalty! It should be +2 or -2, not both, because in the end we have 4 diference not 2.
Example of existing CADs: Captain America (mag. 4) vs. Spider-Man (mag. 3)
Cap: He uses his shield to defend, adds his RD 3. Defense 9. Then he uses his CC to create 11 stone attack.

Spider-Man: He uses his Acrobatics to defend. He uses 6 stones adds RD 3. Defense 9. Then he wants to punch Cap with 6 remening stones using his CC.

Now outcome:
Cap: 11 stone attack and 9 defense.
Spidey: 6 stone attack and 9 defense.
Cap's attack is 11 vs. 9 and spidey's is 6 vs. 9. It's 2/3 stones of difference.

Now i'll apply +2/-2...
13 vs. 7 and 4 vs. 11 It became 4 stones higher difference...

I proposed (in first post) that it should be +2 for higher magnitude character and only for one action per panel.

2) If magnitude is what you described then... i want to know what those levels mean. I wnat to know what mag. 3 threat is. What mag. 3 character are. I want to know that if i create character with exat stats as Sue Richards has that she is mag. 3 because she is lacking of whatever makes Sue mag. 4 and i want to know what it is!

What you are telling is: Spidey is mag. 3 because he can face mag. 3 enemies at equal levels. Mag 3 enemies are mag. 3 because they can fase spidey at equal levels... but why they can do that, only God(s) and you know!

3) GM setted Mag is bad idea. Why? GM Say: we will play New Mutants game and Magnitude is 3. Players created new versions of Magik, Wolfsbane, Cannonball, Sunspot and... Cypher. Player using Cypher said that he has plenty of stones and do not want to low his Magnitude to 2. Why he should do this in mag. 3 game? There is possibility that he raised it to 4 even! And now we have something odd... Cypher is same level threat that Rhino or Spider-Man, while those two are obviously more threat than him!

2 and 3 are the reasons i proposed what makes you mag. x character by myself.

[WildKnight]

I guess thats a difference between you and I... I do consider it a good thing. Some people are just better and I think that should be reflected.

I also don't think thats true in 'some continuities"... I think its true in nearly all fiction.

An excellent example is the movie "Soldier" with Kurt Russell. He's born into a selective breeding/training program to create the ultimate soldier and, later, when he's replaced with the next generation, he goes on to defeat them all. Given his age and so on, its unlikely that his physical abilities were superior to theirs, and as demonstrated in his one-on-one with Jason Lee, he's no more skilled at hand-to-hand than them... but when it comes down to it, he defeats/kills nearly all of them, because he's got "fighting spirit" or something. Something indefinable, yet very tangible.

Eliminating that sense of "drive" or "will" is, IMO, a major disservice.

[bubuniu]

And what i think is that "just better" does not exists. There is always explanation to "just better".

But you pointed good thing with this "will". Not only i forgot to listed is as one of possibilities but It gave me also a necessary impulse to simplify my idea a lot. Give me a few days, maybe I'll come out with something that we both will like.


BTW: the most i'll talk about it the most i like the idea of Magnitude.