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Post by Dionon on Feb 17, 2009 22:13:56 GMT -5
True enough, but how do we reconcile that into a system where both Weapons and Fists should be equally attractive?
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 17, 2009 22:17:45 GMT -5
My ultimate point being just this; with the exception of the major players in the field of comic book weaponry (Cap's shield, Mjolnir, a few others I'm sure I'm forgetting), most weapons in comic books don't seem to provide a major advantage over bare fists... and even though Cap's shield inarguably should, and Mjolnir definitely DOES... we still see even those heroes using their fists and feet as often as not (except at range. That'd be tricky)
I dislike the notion that there is an advantage to using weapons not because of how I think it will influence people playing established heroes (though I think it WILL), but because of how it influences people building NEW heroes.
I don't think that there should be a major advantage to fighting bare fisted... I don't want to start making it so that guns and knives are somehow automatically lethal or something. But I DO want the system to reflect the fact that it is a viable choice... so that players don't feel stupid for NOT taking advantage of free bonuses provided by extremely cheap to acquire equipment.
To an extent, TWF's argument for not allowing weapon bonuses AND ability bonuses assuages that problem... but then I start imagining someone like Thor, who CLEARLY benefits from both the hammer AND his enormous strength, and I'm back off the bandwagon...
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 17, 2009 22:25:37 GMT -5
That's why I suggested a +3 CL option that gets you Ability + Weapon. +3 CL is more expensive than most standard weapon bonuses, but the advantage is versatility: you can switch weapons iffin' ya like.
And well worth it for fancy-pants heroes who pay stones for a special weapon. (We could also include an option in the cost of the weapon that allows it to stack with an Ability Bonus, obviating the need to pay +3 CL on your CC.)
~TWF
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Post by Dionon on Feb 17, 2009 22:29:52 GMT -5
Answer....
Something that you said made me think of the Hulk.... He's got several maneuvers in close combat that use "Advantages" such as his Thunderclap thing, and the Earthquake thingie he does....
How bout this....
Ranged Combat and Armed Combat have it's Weapon Bonuses Unarmed Combat can pay stones of effect to give their attacks their own bonuses (within reason)
Example: Bullseye has his hands on some Admantium rounds... thus making his Ranged Combat Level 4 Armor Penetrating.
Spiderman is fighting him, and decides he's going to throw one to his Solar Plexus... In this example, Spiderman puts out all 12 stones he can from Close Combat... 6 for Damage, and 6 for Attack Disables if Damage Occurs.... It's a Major gamble, and he's out of energy and probably going to take a bullet if he's wrong, but it's a shot.
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 17, 2009 22:31:20 GMT -5
I think I agree with everything you just said except the thing that confused me.
Are you suggesting that if you buy a super-duper weapon (say you want Blade to have the Holy Sword he wielded for a while), you have to pay an increase in CL on the weapon itself to be able to use it with an Ability Bonus, AND you have to pay a CL increase on Close Combat to be able to use both?
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 17, 2009 22:33:16 GMT -5
Answer.... Something that you said made me think of the Hulk.... He's got several maneuvers in close combat that use "Advantages" such as his Thunderclap thing, and the Earthquake thingie he does.... How bout this.... Ranged Combat and Armed Combat have it's Weapon Bonuses Unarmed Combat can pay stones of effect to give their attacks their own bonuses (within reason) ... because as we've already discussed, its almost always better to have more stones in the attack than to have fewer stones and some advantage attached. Plus the weapon bonuses are still free, and you're still paying for the enhancement to Close Combat (in a resource ultimately more precious than creation stones)
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Post by Dionon on Feb 17, 2009 22:46:13 GMT -5
Uh... neither....
Armed Close Combat get's it's Weapon Bonus... as does Ranged Combat....
Unarmed Combat, you know with Fists... can pay stones towards effect... basically paying the CL of an advantage to put it onto an attack that panel.
If Blade has a Sword that gives his Armed Combat 3x damage vs undead... that's all he gets... But if he's fighting a vampire with his fists, and decides to knee him in the groin (which surprisingly hurts Vamps in Marvel) He can pay an extra 2 stones on top of his attack to make the attack 2x damage, OR pay an extra stone to make it a Stun Damage attack stuff like that.
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 17, 2009 22:58:21 GMT -5
I think I agree with everything you just said except the thing that confused me. Are you suggesting that if you buy a super-duper weapon (say you want Blade to have the Holy Sword he wielded for a while), you have to pay an increase in CL on the weapon itself to be able to use it with an Ability Bonus, AND you have to pay a CL increase on Close Combat to be able to use both? No no, if you buy the CL increase on the weapon, you wouldn't have to pay the +3 CL on Close Combat. It was just an off-hand idea.. seems silly to have both options available, actually. Maybe just the +3 CL to CC. ~TWF
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 17, 2009 23:03:00 GMT -5
I don't mind it being able to be purchase either way... I mean, we'd allow X2 damage to be purchased with a weapon OR with Close Combat, depending on the logic behind it, right?
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 17, 2009 23:16:58 GMT -5
Yeah, I suppose that makes sense. It just seems as though it should be a little cheaper on a custom weapon. But anyway, we can hammer that out in another thread sometime (custom equipment hasn't come up).
~TWF
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Post by Dionon on Feb 17, 2009 23:28:57 GMT -5
So... my idea's bad?
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 17, 2009 23:40:55 GMT -5
You keep posting while I'm typing, and I keep neglecting to scroll up and check if there's more. lol
Anyway, that's actually a kinda neat idea, Dio. I'll have to sleep on that. (Really sleepy now.)
EDIT: Although that would really only work with certain advantages. Spending 1 stone to get Efficient would almost always be worthwhile, for example. Fists should almost never be armor penetrating, either. Etc.
EDIT EDIT: Also, you'd have to be already doing a ton of damage to make 2 stones in exchange for x2 damage worth it. Would do the math to figure out how much, but it's a decent amount.
~TWF
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Post by Dionon on Feb 17, 2009 23:45:56 GMT -5
lol, Well honestly, anyone that breaks boards with their fists, technically is spending stones to make their attack Armor Penetrating... it's just point of view (to me anyway)
But I see your point on that one. I dunno, it seems like a good idea, and, in a limited application, would make unarmed strikes just as good as armed strikes.
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 17, 2009 23:51:14 GMT -5
I took Tae Kwon Do and focused on board breaking. Trust me, I do not have armor-penetrating hands, I just have enough strength to overcome difficulty and spent enough stones to overcome resistance. (My 5'2" Grandmaster who can shatter concrete with his tiny little fists clearly has some kind of house ruled modifier, because wow. Would never have believed that it was possible if I hadn't seen it with my own eyes.)
(And before WK laughs at TKD: I took it for the cardio, and to make new friends. That's about all TKD is good for. lol I got into board breaking because it looked neat, and I stopped soon after when it devolved into an expensive way to make firewood.)
~TWF
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Post by Dionon on Feb 17, 2009 23:53:29 GMT -5
What's wrong with Tae Kwon Do?
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