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Post by asawisemansaid on Feb 26, 2009 5:28:15 GMT -5
1 thing I think that got lost in this thread (maybe it got picked up elsewhere and I missed it?) was the 0 ability rating. Personally I agree with the concept of this, but I would think it would mean someone was horribly inept at that. Example, a fully enraged hulk might go all the way down to a 0 int. he is capable of nothing that would be conscious considered thought by this point, he smashes simply because he is
Prof X without a wheelchair handy has a spd and agi of 0...for obvious reasons...he can only move the speed he can drag himself. I think that that is different from someone like the blob who is just reaaaaaalllllyyyy slow.
MODOK might have a 0 strength. I can't remember any instance of him actually lifting with his hands anything ever in any comic ive seen him in. It's rare to even see him walk, I doubt his legs could generate enough power to help him carry stuff without the use of his mind.
Dur of 0 is practically impossible, although I guess you could say someone who is in a coma they have no chance of coming out of has 0 DUR
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Post by Dionon on Feb 26, 2009 10:03:15 GMT -5
Someone who is Undead, at least in DnD has no "Dur" which would be Constitution.... Perhaps we should reinstate that for undead characters and have them have Health equal to their Intelligence....
But as for the 0 stat... There are examples of that in the Spiderman Guide....
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Post by alanee on Feb 26, 2009 10:07:49 GMT -5
But in DnD 'Constitution' applies only to living things, while here, Durability is their... well, Durability and so every undead would have to have it. It just means how much can they take. Because you know, not every undead that is durable, is a lich with Int 6...
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Post by Dionon on Feb 26, 2009 10:35:09 GMT -5
Exactly.... Zombies are near mindless.... at a 1 maybe.
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Post by malice on Mar 2, 2009 10:23:56 GMT -5
How does everybody feel about replacing the concept of Toughness with the concept of Damage Reduction? If you felt it was underpowered you could make it work like Durability and Energy Battery used to, where you get triple your MN. That fix would increase the cost to at least +3, more likely +4.
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Post by Dionon on Mar 2, 2009 13:44:57 GMT -5
I'm going to give a no thank you to that.... I like toughness just the way it is. (Even in the Defense Matrix system, I like it as vjc wrote it)
Damage Reduction would be a good secondary toughness... One that can be bought after the fact or something.
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Post by malice on Mar 2, 2009 13:55:19 GMT -5
I just never understood the difference between Toughness and DR to begin with; if you're withstanding the blow you're withstanding the blow.
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Post by Dionon on Mar 2, 2009 13:56:12 GMT -5
I thought I read DR as "After multiplication, you deduct stones of damage" where toughness is "Before multiplication, you deduct stones of attack"
That's one hell of a difference.
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Post by malice on Mar 2, 2009 14:02:56 GMT -5
You're right it is.
Which is why people edit things, and even why I included the bit about increasing the modifier's cost and multiplying its effect.
It's also worth noting that my original Damage Reduction was meant to work as a secondary defense in a system that included Toughness... which is actually what you suggest.
My original modifier isn't what I was suggesting, I was suggesting that my original modifier could be used as food for thought.
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Post by Dionon on Mar 2, 2009 14:04:07 GMT -5
Hmmm... so Toughness as a Static Defense, and then Damage Reduction as something that can be bought afterward... I like that, I like it alot.
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Post by malice on Mar 9, 2009 12:27:43 GMT -5
I'm liking the defense matrix system more and more. I think the "Will" concept should be completely scrapped though, since intelligence already counts against ALL mental attacks. Instead if a player wants to be "willful" they buy Mental Defense just like before.
In addition I think character like the Hulk should have Damage Reduction on top of their already-formidable toughness. If someone wants their skin to be extremely tough, they can pay the static cost of a high material class (That's the nice thing about those material costs being static) and buy Damage Reduction.
Characters like the Hulk would sit at 8 Toughness (Just like he does now actually) with a high Material Class. In Hulk's case his Toughness would increase with his strength. Such characters could also buy Damage Reduction at a decent MN. It's arguable that all heroes gain some level of Damage Reduction since a lot of them who aren't known for particularly tough skin still take serious beatings on a regular basis.
If a player wanted to increase either their Reflexive Dodge or Toughness they would buy them both as "Defense" at the same rate and gain more of whichever they liked.
So Hulk would look something like this: Str 10 (15 stones + whatever increasing while angry costs) Dur/Health 7 or 8 (6 or 9 stones)
Toughness 8 or 9 Class 5 Material (5 stones) Reflexive Dodge 1
Damage Reduction 8 (15ish stones, pricing not solid)
Spiderman would look something like this: Str 5 (3 stones) Agility 6 (4 stones) Speed 4 (2 stones) Dur/Health 4 (2 stones)
Reflexive Dodge +5 (Plus he could increase it if he chose, but this is what he starts with without paying for it)
Toughness +4 (He doesn't pay to make it a super-tough material)
Damage Reduction 3 (3ish stones)
In fact I think this Matrix works well enough I would be for an increase in the price of the "Defense" modifier or eliminating it entirely.
The Defense Matrix does NOT work well for players who don't buy high ability scores.
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Post by Dionon on Mar 9, 2009 13:17:43 GMT -5
Players with low ability scores can still use the system you proposed in the "Determinig Defense" thread to buy extra defense... So you made it all better.
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Post by Neros on Mar 17, 2009 7:27:41 GMT -5
As i said in the other thread, Im liking this less and less.. Its getting rather complicated, especially compared to the original game.. Also, getting Defense is actually cheaper than before since abilities don't have a Clost Level adjustment.. Getting 2 in defense usually costs 3w, now it costs 1,1w (Strength 2 = 2r, Durability 2 = 2r)..
And getting Abilities + Toughness + Reduction sounds like allot of stacking.. Wherent that one of the things we where trying to remove? Also, as i said in the Damage Reduction Thread, it sounds allot like Toughness..
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Post by malice on Mar 17, 2009 13:43:38 GMT -5
In the "Determining Defense" thread we're addressing a lot of your concerns Neros.
As for Damage Reduction, it's not even clear to me that anyone but Dionon, you, and myself have heard of it or even discussed it for 2.0.
I would love it if you stopped by the "Determining Defense" thread though. I feel like we have at least 2 ideas on the table that are extremely viable for how we get defense in MURPG 2.0, and we'd like your opinion. The bad news is they both use a modified Defense Matrix, the good news is they have built-in ways of preventing easy stacking.
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