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Post by takewithfood on Feb 11, 2009 10:48:03 GMT -5
Hey gang,
So, obviously Force Field has caused a lot of issues in 1.0. I think it's a shame because it's a reasonably common power and one I sometimes wish I had myself. I'd like to do it justice in 2.0.
I've heard that a possible solution has already been discussed elsewhere, but I'd like to see it in here so that we can all have a look.
The problems I hope to correct include:
1. It was originally a little too inexpensive. x2 defensive stones is very powerful.
2. The description of how the area of effect works is misleading. It needs to be explicit.
3. WK and I once had a debate of sorts about whether you can fire "through" your own Force Field; in other words, can you actually affect anything outside your Force Field while it's active. (I argue that you can; if you spend stones on it, it isn't active for the entire duration of the panel, necessarily - at least that's how its portrayed in comics.)
4. Action As Modifier Force Fields were intensely unbalanced and easily overshadowed Toughness by comparison.
Ideas?
~TWF
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 11, 2009 10:52:44 GMT -5
For the record, I gave up on the "no fire through" (though I can still show dozens of examples in the comics where someone inside a Force Field CANNOT attack out of it, and in fact people have been "trapped" in their own Force Fields in the past...) thing, and went on to finding other methods of balancing the action.
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 11, 2009 11:13:18 GMT -5
I agree with you that you can't shoot "through" your own force field. However, a panel is a decent chunk of time, and I imagine characters with force fields putting up a FF when they're being attacked, then lowering it to fire, and so on.
Let's say Hellion has 3 stones in his FF for 6 defense total, and he's also using his Telekinesis to shove some opponents around. If someone attacks him for 8 stones, he's injured. Now, there are two ways to describe this: 1) the assault battered down/through his force field and hit him with diminished impact, or 2) he got nicked when his shield was down, or from an angle that his FF wasn't covering completely.
Know what I mean? I try to interpret the action as being more fluid, rather than "shield up for 30 seconds > shield down for 30 seconds".
EDIT: To some extent you can compare it to how a character with 6 stones in Close Combat, 3 of which are shifted to defense isn't ONLY protecting herself, she's probably also tossing in some punches here and there, and raising her defenses when she sees an attack coming.
EDIT EDIT: Perhaps there should be a mechanic where you only get x2 defense if you go full-defensive, ie, not lowering your FF at all, and thus being unable to affect the area outside your FF.
~TWF
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Post by Jet on Feb 11, 2009 11:23:01 GMT -5
Hellion is a bad example, becouse... well, telekinesis within your own Force Field is one of those "exceptions from rule". At least, I wouldnt have problems with it.
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 11, 2009 11:28:00 GMT -5
Well, you may be right that he isn't the best example (though nowadays his Telekinesis is more like a force blast!) but the point remains the same: a force field shouldn't have to be up for the duration of the entire panel for defensive stones to count.
~TWF
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 11, 2009 11:56:42 GMT -5
The problem with the "fluid" argument is that its never been represented that way in the comics... ever.
We don't see Sue Richards raise the field and then drop it so that Thing can throw a punch, then bring it right back up.
Given that the defense lasts the entire panel, and may be "breached" by allies yet defend against enemies multiple times within the same comic... thats just not at all reflective of what we see in the comics.
IMO the mechanic should reflect the fact that once Sue puts a Force Field up, she holds on to it for all its worth, rather than dropping them and creating new ones at the bat of an eye.
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Post by Dionon on Feb 11, 2009 13:18:46 GMT -5
Didn't we cover all this before?
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 11, 2009 13:27:19 GMT -5
(I'd just like to point out that this is where you like to tell me "try not to apply too much logic and you'll be happier" or some such. ^__^)
Yeah, you're right, at least when it comes to stones of defense for allies. Unfortunately this makes it a pretty limited Action.
Part of my problem is that I haven't read any Fantastic 4 comics, so I'm very limited in my understand of how Sue Richards uses her FFs. I'm more familiar with characters like Hellion, Armor and Xavin (super skrull in training from Runaways).
Is the idea that someone who uses their FF for personal defense while still attacking gets only x1 defense (the same as shifting stones from any old action; essentially using FF provides flavour) fair?
Also, we should address how non-spherical-and-centered-on-user FFs are done. I've seen Xavin create bridges, prisons, and other nifty things with her (I'm going to go with her, despite her gender-swapping tendencies) FFs, yet we don't really have any rules for what can and can't be done in this respect.
~TWF
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 11, 2009 13:28:15 GMT -5
Didn't we cover all this before? If you did, you didn't do it in this folder. To be fair to everyone I think all the rule changes should be put up in here for everyone to see. ~TWF
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Post by bubuniu on Feb 11, 2009 14:46:01 GMT -5
Also, we should address how non-spherical-and-centered-on-user FFs are done. I've seen Xavin create bridges, prisons, and other nifty things with her (I'm going to go with her, despite her gender-swapping tendencies) FFs, yet we don't really have any rules for what can and can't be done in this respect. ~TWF Maybe it's because Xavin's and Sue's FF should be Mastery of Force with create, force blast, force field options? By the way, why not make Force Field something like that: your stones used are like hardness\toughness equivalent. You have to be able to destroy\create enough force it to be able to get though it i.e have enough Strength number, AN with Mastery or Force Blast (or similar actions) or weapon modifier (with let's say half you strength for close combat and throwing and agility for shooting)? Something similar could go with toughness. Then we can lower granted defense to 1 stone spend. Of course this should be revised for new way of how modifiers works. Example: Beast or Spider-Man with strength 5 can create enough force to get through Arana's Carapace (of 4), Blob's or Moonstone's Toughness *(of 4) but not Sue's FF or Colossus or Thing's skin (all of 6). Example #2: Hulk is throwing something at Sue. with her FF 6 and his strength of 10 he needs only mod. 1 to be able to get through it. He pick up a car (+4 modifier from it's weight) and uses his Strength as Action. He puts 10 stones into it and adds +4 from car then he adds -2 sit. mod. from using Ability instead of action to get 12 stone attack. 6 stone gets through, damaging Sue (2 white stones). Example #3: character with both FF and Toughness should be threated like that: you have to be able to get trough both, the FF and toughness at the same time/attack. Thats the reason why Juggernaut is Unstoppable. There is only one exception: you can still 1st deactivate/destroy FF and then attack the normal way. If Juggernaut with TGH of 9 and FF of 6 (total of 15) fights against Hulk, Hulk can damage him normally because he can do it with Juggy's TGH or FF if used separately. Also if he hits him with enough stones to destroy/get through FF (but not TGH and FF together) then FF is deactivated and must be raised again.
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Post by Dionon on Feb 11, 2009 15:51:39 GMT -5
The modified rules for Force Field were
Force Field = 1 Defense/1 Stone Played and counts as a Level 4 Material = +2 CL 2x Defense = +2 CL Option
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 11, 2009 16:04:07 GMT -5
Honestly? I think that Force Field should be energy intensive, BUT have a duration... thus encouraging players to put up once Force Field and stick with it till its depleted (errr... and there'd have to be a mechanic for Force Fields being depleted), rather than put up a new one every panel that grants tremendous amounts of defense for very little stone output.
It would be much more reflective of the way Force Fields typically work in the comics (i.e. the fact that they can be "broken")
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Post by Dionon on Feb 11, 2009 16:08:53 GMT -5
How bout we pull the Ablative Force Field rule from the House Rules assemble guide, but remove the ability to Reinforce the Force Field?
That would work.
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 11, 2009 16:11:03 GMT -5
There are rules somewhere for an Ablative Force Field that pretty much does that, WK.
It doesn't solve all our problems, but it's an interesting alternative to just "hey, you get more defense".
I'd argue again that Hellion tosses up force fields easier than most people scratch their asses, but then again he absolutely drips with excess energy, so maybe that's his deal.
1 defense/stone makes it crap for self defense (ie, if you're using it to protect yourself). Honestly, as it stands, any use of Force Field means you can't do crap at all outside your area. I'd rather have some other Action that has an effect besides mostly just defense, and shift stones to defense. Shifted stones essentially have infinite NO AP.
~TWF
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 11, 2009 16:13:46 GMT -5
Ablative Force Field is utterly broken.
I invest 6 stones to get a 6 stone Force Field with 6 health levels, and 6 defense on each health level...
So for 6 stones, I get a super-layered defense that will probably mean nothing touches me for at least 2 or 3 panels... and that I can readily "turn on" again at least every other panel. Crazy.
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