|
Post by Dionon on Feb 11, 2009 16:22:30 GMT -5
So change it to having to put in the stones spent to raise the field each turn, and make it so you can't reinforce it...
IE: Susan Storm has a 6 Force Field... She raises a 4 stone one to defend against the Hulk... It's going to cost her 4 stones a turn to maintain the field, which is going to limit her. And if the Hulk's hitting for his normal... which is 9 stones a BOOM... Turn 1 he smashes the Force Field down to 2 health... Turn 2 he annhilates it.
|
|
|
Post by takewithfood on Feb 11, 2009 16:32:41 GMT -5
Ablative Force Field is utterly broken. I invest 6 stones to get a 6 stone Force Field with 6 health levels, and 6 defense on each health level... So for 6 stones, I get a super-layered defense that will probably mean nothing touches me for at least 2 or 3 panels... and that I can readily "turn on" again at least every other panel. Crazy. It's a neat mechanic, though. If you can stow the negativity for a couple minutes I'm sure we could come up with a fix. ~TWF
|
|
|
Post by Dionon on Feb 11, 2009 16:36:27 GMT -5
Hey... I just did that lol
|
|
|
Post by WildKnight on Feb 11, 2009 19:40:06 GMT -5
My problem is that while the "ablative" nature of it might do a closer job of mimicking force fields in the comics, the fact that it costs so little to put up/maintain does not.
Sue Richards gets knocked out more often from the strain of holding her Force Fields together than she does from any actual harm. With the (extremely) minimal cost of a very high defense (even worse with ablative FF, actually), this is far from the case in the game.
|
|
|
Post by Dionon on Feb 11, 2009 19:53:25 GMT -5
Not really dude... I mean if you lower her AN to 4, you pretty much simulate her almost exactly.... Especially with the changes I made to the action.
|
|
|
Post by WildKnight on Feb 11, 2009 19:54:45 GMT -5
Here's the problem with your example; what stops her from simply putting up a new 4 stone Force Field every panel? Thats only 1 stone over her regen, she can keep that up for a looooooooong time.
|
|
|
Post by Dionon on Feb 11, 2009 20:15:09 GMT -5
That's true, But what would you suggest that wouldn't make Force Field worthless?
|
|
|
Post by WildKnight on Feb 11, 2009 21:34:54 GMT -5
IMO, worthless is highly relative to player perception. Of tangental relation; the wizard in D&D 4 is probably the single most powerful class at Epic Levels, yet its perceived as "weak" by players because in previous editions, the wizard could destroy almost any foe in one or two rounds, and could do severe damage to multiple opponents (half or more of their hit points easily) in a single round. Because this is no longer the case, people complain about it being "nerfed."
Force Field is just too strong. Double Defense with No Armor Penetration for a relatively low maintenance cost... its just too much. It could still be an incredibly effective power, but anything I suggest taking away is going to result in players claiming that its been "nerfed" and is now "useless" because, yes, by comparison to its former (abusive) glory, it will be weak(er).
Personally I'm for a Force Field that (before options are purchased) is based on observable fact from Sue Richard's version of the power, as she is the most prominent "force field" user in the comics.
This would mean that A) A Force Field requires significant energy input from the character to raise, enough so that the player will be encouraged to keep up a Force Field that has been imperiled rather than just throw up another one each panel.
B) Force fields are equally impermeable both ways (except by things that logically should not be blocked by Force Fields... i.e. a telekinetic could lift and move objects outside the Force field without problems)
C) When a character "reinforces" a Force Field willfully, it does more than just make them tired (i.e. take stones from the energy pool). Sue Richards isn't bleeding out the nose because she exerted a little energy. She's bleeding out the nose because of the strain to her system.
****************************************************
Now, a lot of these things may ultimately fly in the face of simplicity, and can be sacrificed for that cause... but the power as written is just broken. Even at AN+4, its more than worth it, ESPECIALLY with the system we've come up with that will allow players to pick their energy regeneration rate. It will be incredibly easy for players to make sure they have enough energy to continually power their Force Field, in particular if we allow a PCPT-type Modifier at a cost of MN+2 to boost this number...
|
|
|
Post by takewithfood on Feb 11, 2009 21:50:40 GMT -5
Let's not make this "what Sue Richards does", let's just make it a Force Field. I've said before in a similar debate that if Sue Richards has trouble maintaining a force field, that's her problem. Maybe she sucks at it. There are tons of other characters who use FFs without trouble, and in all sorts of different forms. Jean Grey. Skids. Karloina Dean and Xavin. Juggernaut. Projector. Songbird, etc. A lot of these characters are depicted in comics (and especially on television) using Force Fields in conjunction with attacks. The MURPG rules should find some way of portraying this. I think the difficulty we're having is that we're still picturing someone with stones in Force Field having a big round bubble around them for the entire duration of the panel. As I've said before, that doesn't seem fair. The counterpoint is that, as WK pointed out, it's silly to have Sue toss up a force field, only to lower it the second Thing wants to throw a punch. It's awkward to say the least. But there must be an elegant middle ground. Forgive the point-form: Default- cost is AN +2 CL - FF stones of defense are x2 as usual - default area is "personal" - so long as the area is "personal" you may attack as usual (possibly with a situational penalty to your attacks) - always requires effort: cannot be a Permanent Power or Unlimited Power. - considered a Class 4 material by default Aiding Others- you may expand the area to offer aid to your friends if you like; area 1 and 2 are free; pay 1 stone per area above 2 to a max area equal to your AN - when you declare that you're aiding others, anyone within your area can claim your defensive stones - HOWEVER: neither you, nor anyone who claims the aid may make attack actions that panel; you are focusing on protecting them, and they're simply stuck behind your FF - don't worry so much about where bad guys are in relation to the area; even if they're inside, they don't get protection: the shape of the force field isn't necessarily a sphere, nor is it limited to ONE sphere Options- being able to attack by thrusting a force field at an opponent should be a +1 CL option since not everyone can do this; Range 3 - being able to create force constructs should also be a +1 option, since not everyone can do this. Pay stones for area (size of construct; area up to 2 is free as usual) and durability (max weight it can support is stones x2; if the construct takes damage in excess of stones x2, it collapses) - frictionless forcefields ignore Entangle and attempts to hold or grapple for +1 CL - can lower to a Class 3 material for -1 CL - personal FF only for -1 CL (supercedes "others do not benefit") Example: Some of the New X-Men, including Surge, Hellion, Armor and X-23 are battling the Blob. Surge and X-23 have been doing most of the fighting and are starting to tire. At the start of the next page, Hellion declares that he's putting 5 stones into Force Field and is offering protection to anyone within area 2. Surge happily accepts the help, but X-23 and Armor decide they're okay on their own. Hellion and Surge both gain +10 stones of defense from the force field, but in return they are unable to attack Blob this panel. Armor's personal forcefield keeps her well protected while still enabling her to attack (she suffers a -2 situational penalty for attacking with a personal Force Field up, but she has recently taken a relevant Close Combat specialty which negates it). X-23 is unprotected this round, and winds up getting hammered into the floor by the Blob! Perhaps next time she'll take umbrage when it's offered.Some Sample FFsArmor (Hisako Ichiki) - personal FF only -1 CL - Class 3 Material -1 CL (since Wolverine's claws penetrate, but his fists don't) - [url= Free Action +3 CL (probably has at least a +1 modifier, too) Hellion (Julian Keller before control issues; he's kinda messed up these days) - attack at range 3 +1 CL - create constructs +1 CL - Class 3 Material -1 CL (has had his FF punctured by special bullets) Skids (Sally Blevins) - frictionless +1 CL Projector (Zachary Williams) - attack at range 3 +1 CL - create constructs +1 CL - personal FF only -1 CL ~TWF
|
|
|
Post by WildKnight on Feb 11, 2009 21:55:36 GMT -5
Default- cost is AN +2 CL - FF stones of defense are x2 as usual - default area is "personal" - so long as the area is "personal" you may attack as usual (possibly with a situational penalty to your attacks unless you're combining stones of attack) - always requires effort: cannot be a Permanent Power or Unlimited Power. - considered a Class 4 material by default ... and you don't think thats ridiculously uber? <Edit> I also refuse to accept this argument that "maybe Sue sucks at it"... Sue is THE quintessential Force Field character in Marvel Comics, and is outright stated in the canon to have the most potent Force Fields of any of Earth's heroes. Tossing her out as an example is like tossing out Iron Man as an example of Powered Armor.
|
|
|
Post by vjcsmoke on Feb 11, 2009 21:57:47 GMT -5
Whoa, whoa, whoa! Giving Forcefield that many options moves it entirely away from the KISS ideal.
Here's a counterproposal. Let's weaken Forcefield to 1.5x defense instead of 2x defense. As I've noted before, 150% is usually easier to deal with than 200%. And if you want 200% you can upgrade it with a +2 option.
Forcefield (AN+2) -Increase defense by 1.5x per each stone put into this action. -This action may be used offensively but at a 1 to 1 stone ratio.
Options: -Increase defenxe by 2x instead per each stone put into this action. +2 CL -No AP. +1CL
And there you go. If you want to enjoy 2x, no AP forcefield, it's a +5 action. Keeps it very simple.
|
|
|
Post by takewithfood on Feb 11, 2009 22:04:11 GMT -5
I strongly believe in the proposal I put forward. If the default is too powerful, let's ramp up the cost a little.
vjc, I don't think all those options steps away from KISS. I showed some example FFs and none of them have more than 3 options. How is that "entirely away from the KISS ideal"?
WK: I get that Sue is the quintessential FF character. I really do get that. But if she passes out from using her FFs too much, it's probably because she's putting in a ton of stones that she can't maintain. That sounds like a very high AN with low (by comparison) energy recovery.
~TWF
|
|
|
Post by takewithfood on Feb 11, 2009 22:05:13 GMT -5
I'm happy with x1.5 defense by default, with x2 as a +2 CL option.
The major contribution of my mechanic was the part about offering aid to others. Since it cuts them out of combat for the whole panel, they should be able to decide for themselves if they want protection (although now that I think about it, maybe offering is the polite thing to do; you should also be able to just cut people off)
~TWF
|
|
|
Post by vjcsmoke on Feb 11, 2009 22:05:52 GMT -5
Because you have like 10 different options/advantages/disadvantages. That's pretty darn complicated. And what in the world is frictionless?
|
|
|
Post by takewithfood on Feb 11, 2009 22:06:58 GMT -5
Uhm, I have FIVE options.
Frictionless is just there for Skids. ^__^ I tried to make a list of every character with FFs that I could think of, and she came to mind. I tried to include everyone.
~TWF
|
|